[Question]Certain Units...

[Finellach]

I already asked these questions in the units thread, but no one seems to notice it or am I simply ignored....
So once again if no one saw it.

Cataphracts are said to be available in South Balkans and Byzantium. What does that means actually?! South Balkans is I presume today Greece, Albania and part of Turkey, but what Byzantium mean? It was a kingdom that changed borders so often that it is even hard to keep up with the changes along the years.
Can someone clarify what Byznatium means? Does it means if you play as Byzantium you can always produce Cataphracts even if your Byznatium is placed in "non-Byzantium" areas?

Also Janissary are said to available in Southeast Europe, what does that mean also? Where is Croatia by that definition? I know that some say Croatia is middle-european country and some say it's on Balkans, thats not actually important, but what is important is what the devs definition of SE Europe is.
I mean they are(Janissaries) purely Turkish-islamic units that were brought by the Turks in their conquests to the area of Bosnia and Balkans at the end of the 15th century. If you would be able to recruit Janissary in for example Bosnia that would be wierd to say at least. Can someone clarify what "Southeast Europe" means?!

[Frank Fay]

The reaon why we are not that specific is that the availability of the units is part of ballancing the game. We say regions instead of the exact provinces. I can not tell you if it includes Croatia or not. But lets wait what Frujin says.

[Finellach]

Ok thanks. :(


Frujin where are you? :D :p

[Elewyn]

Frujin, where are you? :)

btw, I have a question:
what kind of cavary will be available in areas of Balkans where most probably will not be Feudals nor Cataphracts nor Boyars. Or do they cover all areas?

IMO in Bosnia, there is place for none of them. Something similar to Scandinavia. I van't imagine none of existing "special" cavalry units (hobilars, feudals, boyars, cataphracts, camel riders, steppe horsemen). Does that mean there will be only light cavalry and horse archers?

that's why I miss some "medium" cavalry unit. Something like what men-at-arms in infantry are.

[Finellach]

Well Bosnia was under the control of Byznatium for a brief period in 12th century and unit showcase says Cataphracts are said to be summoned in Byznatium.

I also agree with you with the units and may I say that I see no place for Janissaries in Bosnia as well, unless it's conquered by Ottoman's as it happened. Janissary is purely and explicitly islamic unit and Bosnia was Christian land before the Turks came, with the exception of some large number of Pagans in the north-center part of Bosnia.

I must say I am sorry I don't see some kind of Central European mounted units. These types of cavlary was some sort of light/medium cavlary that was quite effective, especially against the Turks. :D

[Siena]

Originally posted by Elewyn

IMO in Bosnia, there is place for none of them. Something similar to Scandinavia. I van't imagine none of existing "special" cavalry units (hobilars, feudals, boyars, cataphracts, camel riders, steppe horsemen). Does that mean there will be only light cavalry and horse archers?

that's why I miss some "medium" cavalry unit. Something like what men-at-arms in infantry are.

All right, in the same light, I would like to point out Lithuanian area.
What sort of cavalry will be there?
Boyars?

So then Lithuanian Boyars will be fighting Rus Boyars.
Not very exciting. And it would be missing an opportunity to have a really unique and fun unit for that area- which was a unique area in Medieval Europe.

I would propose some kind of "forest cavalry" for Lithuanian area.
I imagine it a bit similar looking to Hobilars, only shield would be not round and spear could be used for throwing. Also, sword would be needed as well....

:)

[Finellach]

As I pointed before it would be best if every country would have unique units and army, but that is imposibble. ;)

[Khan Krum]

Personally, I find the cataphracts quite similar to Bulgarian horsemen. I still wonder what type of heavy cavalry we'd have because knights were hugh not common at all around here.

[Siena]

Originally posted by Finellach
As I pointed before it would be best if every country would have unique units and army, but that is imposibble. ;)

Why is it impossible?

Besides - units can be shared across the countries, but it makes sense for each unique region to have unique unit.
Highlander - is a unique unit for quite a small area.
Same with Longbowman.

And that is very good.

But it would be extrememly nice if other unique areas would have their own unique units.

And I would argue that Baltic area was unique with its foresty and swampy terrain, which was well used by small horses and mobile "forest" cavalry (which was quite good also in the plains).

[Finellach]

It is imposibble since then you would have 200 different units and that would be stupid.

Btw. Bulgarian Cavalry is variation on Cataphracts...in other words Bulgarian Cavalry=Cataphracts. ;)

[Emhyr var Emreis]

i think that every unique region deserve it's unique unit, one at least. One, which is mainly there (if not only there)

Fact is, that Britain has 3 unique units like this which are only there (highlander, longbowmen and hobilars) while huge area of lands with mostly slavic population (almost half of Europe: Russia, Baltics, Eastern central Europe, Balkans except Thrakia and Greece,) has only one unit like this: Boyars. Yes, there are some more units, like Steppe horsemen and Cataphracts, but they are mostly non-Slavic/non-Baltic or Teutonic knights and they all are main enemy units of those nations.

I apologize in advance, but it's very very unfair. Almost half of Europe with only one unique unit? if some 2-3 more added in extension (when Frank promissed 4-5 for East and South map extension) it's still not enough because area of Britain (I must accept it's rare uniqness, but it's still dwarf in comparison with half of Europe) has the same number :angry:

[Siena]

Originally posted by Finellach
It is imposibble since then you would have 200 different units and that would be stupid.

Btw. Bulgarian Cavalry is variation on Cataphracts...in other words Bulgarian Cavalry=Cataphracts. ;)

First of all - 200 is not an impossible number as such. If you said 2000000 units - I would agree - it is impossible.
But 200 - quite possible.

Secondly - I guess we should define what we mean by "unique regions" and "countries".
At least one unique unit for unique region would not make 200 units in my opinion, if we are talking about regions of Medieval Europe.

Even if we would consider each national entity of today's Europe - we would not get 200. We would not get 50, probably.
I am counting from memory now. Have no map before me...

Anyway - Medieval Europe was not as diverse as today.

[Khan Krum]

Point accepted, Finellach :) . It'd be a relief if it turns out as u talk in the game.
Discussing unique units, I agree they would be closer to 200 as we speak about a land whose map constantly changed and war skills were vital for survival. Thus, we consider elite amries as well as the typical light heavy cavalry, diverse infantry, archers - but just called by different names with different appearance and sometimes specific function on the battle field. Just to mention some countries didn't have the infantry to oppose stronger enemies and thus had to use everything their natural habitat supposed. Take a look at Early Slavic infantry in comparisson with trained units in Byzantium or the Russian Royal Guards. And then we have Vikings mixing with Slavs in Russia, mounted Steppe tribes organizing Slavic states in a country near the Byzantine Empire taking cultural influence from the grande state to still preserve some of their natural habits. We have also different armor around - scale armor, plate armor (limited in regions), etc.
Now I'm not an expert in medieval warfare, but such a research (on military units for each country) would turn out to sell books let alone a pc game.
The only disappointment I have right now is caused by the lack of Slavic unique units with the exception of Boyars and to mention that Black Sea studios originate in such a country. Besides, it would make my country's gameplay more diverse and unique, but really that's only my selfish nature that speaks in the last sentence.
And still I read an article in a Bulgarian magazine and the game is mentioned to quite diverse in terms of terrain usage, diplomacy and macromanagement. And despite the units always being the most interesting when we speak about a new game coming out, I think up to now we have to be satisfied. Hopefully, during the Beta testings we might get some changes. But I think new units will be available only for the expansion (if there is to be one, and then again EA are publishers :) ).
As about the issue on Janissaries, yeah they should be reserved to Turks only and IMO only after they conquered at least one christian kingdom because of these people being kidnapped at a young age (usually even considered to be a "blood tribute") and being of a different religion as the Islamic state would not consider causing this pain to people of their own faith. The same goes to Mamelukes. Turks had another unique unit - spachiya (don't know how this would translate into English) which was the equivalent of knights, but not fully due to these mounted units carrying a bow as well.
Last, Steppe Horsemen also had some peculiarities. Talking for instance Bulgarian troops were highly influenced by Persian and early Turkish settlements, while the Mongols who later invaded were closer to East Asian cultural reference. Then we have Attila's tribes (among which Bulgars) being also quite different amongst themselves, so returning to the previous point about the unique units - we have Magyars being different from some of the tribes in the Hunic khaganate or the Avars.
PS: Yeah I don't like the way British nations turned out, but they have still some Celtic legacy mixed with Anglo-Saxon influence and later Normanic government. Plus they were still away enough from the Roman Empire influence which helped them develop seperately.

[Henrik]

Originally posted by Khan Krum
Now I'm not an expert in medieval warfare, but such a research (on military units for each country) would turn out to sell books let alone a pc game.


I'll agree with you that it would be a task of almost epic proportions to do the research right, BUT luckily the devs have the internet and us the users, so if they need some info from specific regions they should just let us know and many of us would actually feel quite honored to lent them a hand in their hour of need simply because it's in our own interest - i.e. we want it to be the best game - right ;)

[Khan Krum]

I'm at 100% with you - we, the fans, can help quite much with this game. But may be we have to do some organization in order to better help them (if they wish for it) because it might turn out that we have too many wishes around here :) .
I really accept the idea of contributing with concept art, info and some opinions and not only level our role to balance change during the Beta tests.

[Finellach]

Originally posted by Siena
First of all - 200 is not an impossible number as such. If you said 2000000 units - I would agree - it is impossible.
But 200 - quite possible.

Secondly - I guess we should define what we mean by "unique regions" and "countries".
At least one unique unit for unique region would not make 200 units in my opinion, if we are talking about regions of Medieval Europe.

Even if we would consider each national entity of today's Europe - we would not get 200. We would not get 50, probably.
I am counting from memory now. Have no map before me...

Anyway - Medieval Europe was not as diverse as today.

200 is not imposibble, but highly unlikely and as such we can say that it's hardly posibble or imposibble. ;)

Also I don't know what would this game gain by every "region" having it's unique unit. First of all it would take ages to balance it, second as pointed by Khan Krum most units in medival Europe where the same, but had different name and somewhat different use on the battlefield, but basiclly there were many "alike" units.

I would also like some more units, but not units for every realm/province as you suggest. I would especially like to see more units in Central-East Europe because as it seems now most units are in West Europe. And as I pointed before this area was very famous by it's light-medium cavalry. Such cavalry dealt enourmous losses to Turkish Ottomans by various armies. Great Nikola Subic Zrinski(Zriny in Hungarian), for eample, who later became Ban(Duke-Viceroy) of Croatia deal on of those losses by leading such cavalry deep into Croatian occupied lands and burnt one of the wonders of that time. The great wooden bridge of Sulejman II which was placed in the very town I was born and live in today. :D

We basically have no units for large areas of Europe from Bohemia and Slovakia in the North to the Bosnia, Croatia and Serbia to the South. And Also from Bohemia, Hungary and Croatia in the Westermost to Ukraine and Romania in the Easternmost. I say Ukraine because Russia will definitly have Boyars and very posibbly Vikings and Bulgaria will definitly have Cataphracts.
That leaves us with huge spaces of Central-East Europe with basiclly no special units.
For comaprison British islands have 4-5 special units. France, Germany, Spain and the surrounding countries about 3-4 at least.
Other areas at least 1-2.

[Khan Krum]

Agreed, Finellach. It's hard to believe there are no slavic units (excluding the Boyars, but they were affected by Viking Invasion) as they were major force in the early Middle ages considering they inhabited a vaste land of East Europe. As Elewyn suggested in another thread there should be Varyags at the least as a reference to the tribes that survived the harsh atmosphere in Europe and managed to unite under one ruler at some point.
And at the same time we are stuck with Steppe Riders who besides Bulgaria (formed by such tribes getting the support of the Slavs) and Hungary (Magyars settling down) would be available in the Avar Khaganate if it's present in the game and thus making less impact than soldiers (most of them non-professional) in East Europe.

[Siautas]

Originally posted by Emhyr var Emreis
i think that every unique region deserve it's unique unit, one at least. One, which is mainly there (if not only there)

Fact is, that Britain has 3 unique units like this which are only there (highlander, longbowmen and hobilars) while huge area of lands with mostly slavic population (almost half of Europe: Russia, Baltics, Eastern central Europe, Balkans except Thrakia and Greece,) has only one unit like this: Boyars. Yes, there are some more units, like Steppe horsemen and Cataphracts, but they are mostly non-Slavic/non-Baltic or Teutonic knights and they all are main enemy units of those nations.

I apologize in advance, but it's very very unfair. Almost half of Europe with only one unique unit? if some 2-3 more added in extension (when Frank promissed 4-5 for East and South map extension) it's still not enough because area of Britain (I must accept it's rare uniqness, but it's still dwarf in comparison with half of Europe) has the same number :angry:

:cheers: right said, man. It's really seems we would have unfair situation. I'm really believe that game creators will correct this mistake. I still believe in their professional skills and hope trey will focus on this topic in the last stage of the game.


Me and others fans of this game point unbalanced units problem in this game, please don't ignore us. I hope it is really important to you like it's important to us.

tnx

[Frujin]

Guys, please, show some patience. Frank is in BSS offices currently. We are busy like hell latest days. E3 is also comming too fast for my taste. So, we have not much time.

BUT we are still reading everything which you post on the forums, as well as emails we get (see Henrik :)). And we are taking in account your opinion.

More information for the game we will share as soon as we find a bit more time. :(

[Khan Krum]

Thx, Frujin! Once again good luck!