Normans question

[Vytis]

Do normans really deserve to be a separate unit more than let's say more generic macemen? After all, we already have vikings.
Proposition: replace normans with macemen.

[Finellach]

IMO Normans do deserve to be in the game as separate unit. There are a couple of reasons for that: 1.they are nothing like Vikings and they have no connection with them except common ancestry and 2. Normans had very big impact on almost every major culture in West Europe, from Germany and England to Italy and France. ;)

[Elewyn]

Originally posted by Finellach
IMO Normans do deserve to be in the game as separate unit. There are a couple of reasons for that: 1.they are nothing like Vikings and they have no connection with them except common ancestry and 2. Normans had very big impact on almost every major culture in West Europe, from Germany and England to Italy and France. ;) I will only correct you a little. From France to England and Italy and also the Balkans, Tunis and Palestine. "Norman" states (created by knights from Normandy in France) become the most powerfull in entury:
England, ruling from Scotland to Pyrenes including parts of Ireland, Scotland, England and western half of todays France

Kingdom of Sicily ruled Sicily, Sarsiny, Italy south of Papal states temporarily western coast of Balkans (today Albanian coast), but their raids were deadly to Byzantines (many times they get to Solun(Thesaloniki) besieged it and plunder, many times they raided to Tunisia and contiguous African areas.

Their ancestors were Vikings, but thed were more French afterall with magnificent political and warrior skills. Their devise was ability to combinate local original political customs and improve them with their own customs based by centralised rule and great war power.

They really deserve being separate units.

[the knightly sword]

they really deserve to be in!!!!!!!!!. first normans was vikings they took the ´piece of land when they attackd france in the viking time . but after a time they stopd being vikings . they were
a country first but they got french and they called the landscape normandie.

[Finellach]

Elewyn I wouldn't say you corrected me it seems more like you elaborated what I said. :D ;)

[Vytis]

Um... I'm not saying normans don't deserve to be there as a unit. I have nothing against them.
But I'm kinda suggesting that maceman deserves that spot a little more [assuming units number cannot be increased].
Here's my reasoning:
1.Normans were active and powerful force only for a relatively short period of time. 911 AD invasion of France to 1066 conquest of England.
Macemen were used during the whole medieval period.
2.Not a very extensive list of norman territories : northern France, England and Sicily.
Macemen available almost everywhere in Europe.

So considering those 2 factors (time+location) I'd say macemen had a much bigger impact on medieval Europe as a unit. Therefore, they deserve to be in the game more than normans.

+ I'll repeat myself : we already have vikings.

[Henrik]

Originally posted by Finellach
Elewyn I wouldn't say you corrected me it seems more like you elaborated what I said. :D ;)

I'll agree - as ALWAYS Elewyn did a fine job :go: telling us how it was/is with these normans - i found it quiye interesting :)

[Elewyn]

Originally posted by Vytis
Um... I'm not saying normans don't deserve to be there as a unit. I have nothing against them.
But I'm kinda suggesting that maceman deserves that spot a little more [assuming units number cannot be increased].
Here's my reasoning:
1.Normans were active and powerful force only for a relatively short period of time. 911 AD invasion of France to 1066 conquest of England.
Macemen were used during the whole medieval period.
2.Not a very extensive list of norman territories : northern France, England and Sicily.
Macemen available almost everywhere in Europe.

So considering those 2 factors (time+location) I'd say macemen had a much bigger impact on medieval Europe as a unit. Therefore, they deserve to be in the game more than normans.

+ I'll repeat myself : we already have vikings. I'll repeat myself: Normans are not vikings.

Their influence was much wider. They made England the most powerfull state in 12th century.
Kingdom of Sicily as I described included not only Sicily but half of Italy and influenced significantly papacy since 1054. Greatest times of Sicilian Normans were 1090-end of 12th century, kgdm of Sicily became the base of power of Hohenstaufen(Frederick II. was so powerful not because being HREmperor, but king of Sicily and Naples and heir of Normans!=the reason of his dissesions with pope, he ruled on both south and north of Rome).
Their influence in time must be extended to half of 13th century at least. If KoH range os from 1000 to 1360, time of 911-1250 covers more than half of it.

And the only diference between macemen and swordsmen would be their weapon and efficiency against well armoured units, no armour diference(most likely), no morale or other else diferences.

Maybe more units like macemen deserve to be in game too, that's true. But please don't say macemen instead of Normans. If they should be there instead of some unit, so swordsmen IMO

[Jarlabanke]

Without a doubt the Normans had a great impact. But what is it that makes a Norman swordsman so different from any other?

[Finellach]

Well when you put it that way what makes any swordsman different than the other? ;)

[Jarlabanke]

Equipment?

[Elewyn]

armament, skills, bravery, loyality, strength etc.

[timurlenk]

Originally posted by Elewyn
armament, skills, bravery, loyality, strength etc.


velocity, disposability, costs, discipline, singing voice...

[Jarlabanke]

To get back to my original question, what's so special about the average Norman swordsman?

[Finellach]

You already got the answer.

[Vytis]

Normans are not vikings
So what were they then?

[Finellach]

Originally posted by Vytis
So what were they then?

Romanised Vikings?! :p
No really they share the same ancestry with Vikings, but they are not the same. It's like saying Danes, Germans and English are the same since they all originated from the same place. Catch my drift? ;)

[Drake Maethor]

Originally posted by timurlenk
velocity, disposability, costs, discipline, singing voice...

singing voice was a joke or normans were famous for singing???
:confused: :confused: :confused:

[Elewyn]

If Normans were nothing diferent than Vikings they are called Vikings too.

They spoke French. They had great skill of incorporating local customs and systwems into their own (first step: Danes came to France and its king offered them a land. They accepted it, kept their warrior skills but from local people they learn French and got more "civilized". When they built up powerfull duchy of Normandy they were no longer Vikings, I'll be very lucky if you got this point once, Vytis :) like vhen Varyags lived for longer than 100years in Slavis environment, they got asimilated, have something from Viking ancestors, something from Slavs, they were no longer Slavs nor Vikings)

Jarlabanke. We don't know all details about units of KoH so only devs are able to answer your question. We tried our best but if it's not enough for you, ask Frujin.

I'll try for last time. What was so special? What was so special on Teutonic knights? they were obvious knights in their original lands, they were warriors-monks only. But as soldiers they had nothing so special in comparison with Templars, But they did influenced Baltic region by their conquest and then colonisation. As soldiers they were nothing so special with skills etc. That's the same what Normans did, only another time, another regions.

[Jarlabanke]

Well the only thing that really made Norman soldiers different as far as I know is the so called Norman Shield, but not even that was uniqe to them. As for templars at least they'd look slightly different, and I say skill would differ as were actually talking about some sort of warrior monk who has dedicated a great part of his life for fighting for his cause instead of some unmotivated conscript or mercenary.

It would be better IMO to have some guy armned with a mace instead of just another swordsman.