More on units (another rant)...

[Finellach]

We have been discussing for quite some time about appearance of certain units and addition of some new units for some areas.
It is also well known that most people would like to see Templars and Teutons on horses. However I would like to suggest some other things I already touched in my previous posts. I feel that these changes are should be made:

Teutons - add them in Bohemia, Austria, Swiss and Flanders(present day Holland and Belgium)
Templars - Add them in Central Europe as well (present day Hungary, "North Balkans" Croatia, Bosnia and in Slovakia)
Crossbowman - add them in Teutonic Order areas or areas highly influenced by them (Baltics, Bohemia and North Poland)
Janissary - remove from Balkans, add them specifically to Ottomans and Moslem Middle East.
Vikings - this units is not announced, but I have slight feeling they will not be in Russia(with Ukraine as well) and IMO they should be there since they are (IMO) responsible for organizing Russian Kingdom(with Ukraine as well).
Normans - add them in Denmark(why aren't they present in Denmark?!?) and England.

Also addition of some units also in Central Europe like medium cavalry like already proposed Varyags(Central/East Europe) by Elewyn. Some additional Moslem units like Mamluks(Egypt, Middle East) would be great too.

There is also the pressing issue of wheter Templars and Teutonic Champions should be on horses. I would not like to press this issue in this thread since it has been mentioned so many times and frankly I am quite satisfied with the present look and state of these units, but I would not mind if devs would change them to cavalry. :D

Please if you don't agree with me or would like to correct me please do so.
Also these are only suggestions so bear that in my mind. ;)

[Elewyn]

Originally posted by Finellach
We have been discussing for quite some time about appearance of certain units and addition of some new units for some areas.
It is also well known that most people would like to see Templars and Teutons on horses. However I would like to suggest some other things I already touched in my previous posts. I feel that these changes are should be made:

Teutons - add them in Bohemia, Austria, Swiss and Flanders(present day Holland and Belgium)
Templars - Add them in Central Europe as well (present day Hungary, "North Balkans" Croatia, Bosnia and in Slovakia)
Crossbowman - add them in Teutonic Order areas or areas highly influenced by them (Baltics, Bohemia and North Poland)
Janissary - remove from Balkans, add them specifically to Ottomans and Moslem Middle East.
Vikings - this units is not announced, but I have slight feeling they will not be in Russia(with Ukraine as well) and IMO they should be there since they are (IMO) responsible for organizing Russian Kingdom(with Ukraine as well).
Normans - add them in Denmark(why aren't they present in Denmark?!?) and England.

Also addition of some units also in Central Europe like medium cavalry like already proposed Varyags(Central/East Europe) by Elewyn. Some additional Moslem units like Mamluks(Egypt, Middle East) would be great too.
Hi, Finellach. I don't think it's necessary to open another thread with the same topic (then everybody is curious why I have so many posts: I must answer the same always in 2 threads;))

I pointed out what I agree with.
I agree with medium cav. the same with Varyags, the same with Mamluks. But honestly, Varyags were "asimilated Vikings", they should be in Russian realms, not in eastern-central Europe(may be there only if there will be no more Slavic unit, but then not called Varyags, because I never heard of Varyags in Bohemia nor Poland nor Croatia). I would prefere Varyags AND some more special Slavic unit if possible for area of Poland, Bohemia and Croatia.

And I return now to idea of Varyags not called Varyags, but Slavic warriors and available in wider areas. Hobilars are quite similar to Lithuanian cavalry (if the lance will be shorter), so if you rename them somehow neutrally you will satisfy the need of having unit like this in Baltics, but protect from creating new unit very similar to one already existing. This I suggest because we know there will be only 4-5 new units added!

However Templars WERE ALSO in other regions than in France, they were famous only in France. I guess nobody except Hungarians or Croatians ever have heard about croatian templars (however I am sure they were!) As I said once, if Templars in Croatia, so then also in "Spain", Holland, Germany, whole Italy, England, Bohemia etc.

Crossbowmen should be added to Baltic TO lands(except Lithuania IMO), then not should but may be added to Bohemia and Netherlands and parts of Germany and Poland too.

I don't agree with Normans in Denmark. They were originaly Danes, but they became Normans only after they setteled Normandy. I doubt if they are necessary in Germany. IMO they should be in: Normandy, Bretagne, 2southern realms of England, maybe Flandres, Sicily, Apulia, Naples, Sardiny.

I think there is also one big roblem with units like Janissary. Turks should be able to have them available in Balkans if they conquere it, but it will be very foolish if also their christian enemies would use janissary aggainst them. I think the best way will be if Janissary will be the only "distance" unit in Asia Minor(for all nations), but if some muslim nation conqueres any Balkan realm, also there(only for muslim nations). Is it clear? Maybe only too complicated :(

sorry for soo long post

[Jarlabanke]

I suppose that by Varyags you mean Varangians, and they were not assimilated Slavs, a Varangian is a viking or later a westerner, the Rus however were the name of the assimilated vikings in Russia at least. Not saying there weren't Varangians living in Russia but the sources makes it pretty clear the term is mainly used for people from Scandinavia or perhaps England. Furthermore the Varangians were almost strictly on foot.

[Frujin]

Varangians were VERY popular in Byzantium and were used as Royal Palace guards.

[Henrik]

Originally posted by Frujin
Varangians were VERY popular in Byzantium and were used as Royal Palace guards.

So does this mean that KoH will feature them or not ?

[Finellach]

Originally posted by Elewyn
Hi, Finellach. I don't think it's necessary to open another thread with the same topic (then everybody is curious why I have so many posts: I must answer the same always in 2 threads;))

Well it's not quite the same. I was very careful to what will I write.

Originally posted by Elewyn
I pointed out what I agree with.
I agree with medium cav. the same with Varyags, the same with Mamluks. But honestly, Varyags were "asimilated Vikings", they should be in Russian realms, not in eastern-central Europe(may be there only if there will be no more Slavic unit, but then not called Varyags, because I never heard of Varyags in Bohemia nor Poland nor Croatia). I would prefere Varyags AND some more special Slavic unit if possible for area of Poland, Bohemia and Croatia.

Well I really don't know then. Perhaps Poland, Bohemia and Croatia along with Hungary and Bosnia belong to the Western Europe? I think that would be logical since these countries culturally and by religion always belonged to the West which would then mean these countries would have Feudal Knights. I could live with that. :D

Originally posted by Elewyn
And I return now to idea of Varyags not called Varyags, but Slavic warriors and available in wider areas. Hobilars are quite similar to Lithuanian cavalry (if the lance will be shorter), so if you rename them somehow neutrally you will satisfy the need of having unit like this in Baltics, but protect from creating new unit very similar to one already existing. This I suggest because we know there will be only 4-5 new units added!

I think we should just wait and see....after all there is nothing else we can do anyway. :P

Originally posted by Elewyn
However Templars WERE ALSO in other regions than in France, they were famous only in France. I guess nobody except Hungarians or Croatians ever have heard about croatian templars (however I am sure they were!) As I said once, if Templars in Croatia, so then also in "Spain", Holland, Germany, whole Italy, England, Bohemia etc.

I think it's only enough to look at the Hungarian and also Slovakian coat of arms and he will see the influence of the Templars. I already stated once that it would be best if Templars would be available all over the Catholic(Western Europe). But since this is a game as I already pointed for Holland, Germany and Bohemia would be better Teutonic Champions since they are virtually the same unit, from point of their goal. For England would be best if there are Order of Hospitalieries, in fact I am surprised BSS didn't add them, but then as pointed so many times England and Britain already have too many units. Spain on the other hand had it's own "religious orders". Very alike Templars, Hospitalieries and Teuton, but I agree adding Templars to whole Iberian Penninsula would be a good idea.

Originally posted by Elewyn
Crossbowmen should be added to Baltic TO lands(except Lithuania IMO), then not should but may be added to Bohemia and Netherlands and parts of Germany and Poland too.

I agree.

Originally posted by Elewyn
I don't agree with Normans in Denmark. They were originaly Danes, but they became Normans only after they setteled Normandy. I doubt if they are necessary in Germany. IMO they should be in: Normandy, Bretagne, 2southern realms of England, maybe Flandres, Sicily, Apulia, Naples, Sardiny.

Point taken. Normans are availabe in North France and South Italy, but as I said and you repeated England would be good too although they already have too many units.

Originally posted by Elewyn
I think there is also one big roblem with units like Janissary. Turks should be able to have them available in Balkans if they conquere it, but it will be very foolish if also their christian enemies would use janissary aggainst them. I think the best way will be if Janissary will be the only "distance" unit in Asia Minor(for all nations), but if some muslim nation conqueres any Balkan realm, also there(only for muslim nations). Is it clear? Maybe only too complicated :(

No it's not too complicated. In fact I had a similar idea, but didn't know how to express it and not sound silly. :P

Originally posted by Elewyn
sorry for soo long post

it's nothing. :D ;)

[Vytis]

Teutons - add them in Bohemia, Austria, Swiss and Flanders(present day Holland and Belgium)
Templars - Add them in Central Europe as well (present day Hungary, "North Balkans" Croatia, Bosnia and in Slovakia)
Crossbowman - add them in Teutonic Order areas or areas highly influenced by them (Baltics, Bohemia and North Poland)
Janissary - remove from Balkans, add them specifically to Ottomans and Moslem Middle East.
Vikings - this units is not announced, but I have slight feeling they will not be in Russia(with Ukraine as well) and IMO they should be there since they are (IMO) responsible for organizing Russian Kingdom(with Ukraine as well).
Normans - add them in Denmark(why aren't they present in Denmark?!?) and England.

Dissagree with pretty much everything except that crossbowmen should be tied to TO and janissaries to OE.

Varangians
This would mean we have Vikings, Normans and Varangians ??
This game isn't being developed by Paradox, is it? :)

[Siautas]

[i]This would mean we have Vikings, Normans and Varangians ??This game isn't being developed by Paradox, is it? :) [/B]

:D :D I know what you mean.:D :D

[Elewyn]

Originally posted by Vytis
This would mean we have Vikings, Normans and Varangians ??
This game isn't being developed by Paradox, is it? :) I understand what you mean, but tell me:
do you have any better idea of eastern european infantry unit?

I'm sure they are not the same! Normans are something quite diferent from Vikings and they are not so close to Varangians (sory for my bad expression : Varyags).

I didn't say that Varangians are asimilated Slavs. They were (as far as I know, if I'm wron, correct me please) originaly people from Sweden who came to Russia and trade there. Then they became leading force there and established Russian states (in brief), but as Russian nobility using after few generations Slavic language. They were very good warriors and Byzantine emperors used them as their guard for very long time.

And if Frujin said what he said, it seems to be almost sure they will be in :go:

btw I don't understand what Lithuanians (Siautas, Siena and Vytis) have against Finellach. He's trying. I must say I don't really agree with everything, but i pointed out what is good. You say simply you "Dissagree with pretty much everything except..." soooo negative sentence :( even if you like something on it. Then don't be curious you argue with each other when using expressions like this!

[Khan Krum]

From what I know you are pretty much right about the Varangians, the establisher of the Russian state seems to be Reuorik (correct my spelling pls). But as every settled Scandinavian tribe they came close to accepting the ruling culture on the lands they inhabited - as usually their habits and believes were common for migrating people (pirates, explorers, merchants), so I guess the new ideas they encountered were better suited for their next homeland (may be I'm wrong here).
And thanx for the news from Frujin ;) .
Janissaries (sorry Elewyn if I repeat some part of your post as I really didn't fully get it) on the other hand as christian slaves should be more tricky as I believe Turks made them an elite force when they started conquering christian kingdoms. Now that I check with a book it mentions this military order to be created around 1329 by sulthan Orhan, so I guess i'm right on this one.
And next the Turks had riders in the face of Sipahi who were originali called to war and came with their own equipment, later on they became part of the Turk Feudal System got settlements organized tax collection, etc. I suppose they might be included as well if the devs get the good will.

[Jarlabanke]

Note the difference between Varangians and Rus, both were from the beginning Scandinavian, with the difference of Rus being just a small group of people lving on the coast of what is today Uppland and Södermanland in Sweden, the area is to this day known as Roslagen. Varangian is from the beginning a word that strictly applied to people who were mercenaries (the word is belived to be connected to the old Norse godess Var, who was the godess of oths and such). Later however it became a term for the people living in Scandinavian region, but not for the people living in Russia, who were refered to as Rus a name they took from their ruling dynasty ie Rurik and successors.

[Henrik]

Originally posted by Jarlabanke
Note the difference between Varangians and Rus, both were from the beginning Scandinavian, with the difference of Rus being just a small group of people lving on the coast of what is today Uppland and Södermanland in Sweden, the area is to this day known as Roslagen. Varangian is from the beginning a word that strictly applied to people who were mercenaries (the word is belived to be connected to the old Norse godess Var, who was the godess of oths and such). Later however it became a term for the people living in Scandinavian region, but not for the people living in Russia, who were refered to as Rus a name they took from their ruling dynasty ie Rurik and successors.

Hi Jarlabanke

I'm not sure that "var" was the goddess of oath - coz, i've done some researh and so far i have found that "var" was wise and had a thirst for knowledge.

I'm also on to the word: Varangian (it's english) aka Vaeringi (norse)
a qoute from somewhere on the the web !
"In Russian literature it first appears in the Nestor Chronicles as
Variagi or Variazi (both pl.) Germ. Waraeger . The Byzantine Greeks translated it from Norse Vaeringi as Baraggoi, pronounced "Varangi" Engl. Varangians."

I'll continue my search and get back if i find something useful.

[Siautas]

Originally posted by Elewyn

btw I don't understand what Lithuanians (Siautas, Siena and Vytis) have against Finellach. He's trying. I must say I don't really agree with everything, but i pointed out what is good.

My answer is:we have nothing against.

We just are talking about our region - Baltic. We want that it look more realistic in the game. I think everyone from us have similar wishes, that’s all. Baltic region with only Boyars or Teutonic Champions will look unfair. That's me and other Baltic friends want to say. I know u understand what I say.

ok, I really hope game creators are reading us and will make us happy. We are realists: JUST ONE UNIQUE UNIT FOR BALTIC REAGION.

By for now. And congrats to all 10 counties and their people with EU enlargement.
:cheers:

[Elewyn]

I'm sorry maybe I was to sharp. I only want to stand behind him because it looks little unfair (I didn't think he wanted to have no special unit in your region. IMO he wanted the same like you, to have some more units in Esatern half of Europe (east of Elbe to say it by myself), including Baltic region. One unique unit per region of size of Baltic states or Croatia+Hungary, or Czechia+Poland etc.

I am always with you on Lithuanian cavalry and if not as unique unit then at least having hobilars there (with other name then)

Congrats also from me to all other Newbies :)

[Finellach]

We all actually want the same thing. This whole thread was motivated by my desire for people to express their opinion on units which should be. So if you don't agree with my Vytis(at least not completly) then suggest something better. ;)

[Jarlabanke]

@Henrik
I looked her up in Snorres Edda, this is what I found

"Den nionde är Var. Hon lyssnar till människors eder och de förtroliga avtal som kvinnor och män gör inbördes: därför kallas ett sådant avtal Var. Hon hämnas också på dem som bryta sådana avtal."

After that it mentions Vör another godess who is the one who's wise and searches for knowledge and for whom you can't hide anything. Guess it's some difference in spelling in Swedish and Danish.

[Elewyn]

My Webster's dictionary told me:

"Varangian: any of Norsemen who pursued trade and conquest along the river routes between the Baltic and the Black and Caspian Seas, providing rulers for several Slavic principalities of the region during the 9th and10th centuries."
I would add they were also mercenaries on Byzantine court. my fault, they were not asimilatd Vikings. But mercenaries on Byzantine court were not only Scandinavians, but also Russians who enforced Varangian squads.

IMO they can be taken as russian footmen unit. Now only some really Slavic unit and I'll be happy. Please. Slavs were no peaceful nation, they were very cruel warriors. Just ask some italian chronicles about Bohemians under walls of Milan in 1158.
They deserve some unit.

We now know that Varangians are very probably one of 4-5 units. So? What other? :)

[Jarlabanke]

Actually after from the about 1200 if not earlier the majority of the them were Englishmen and it was more or less known as the Englishguard instead of the varangian. I could accept varangians as a Ukrainian/Russian unit as the princes there also had varangian guardsmen in their ranks, not so strange considering the first princes were varangians themsevlves.

[Frujin]

Originally posted by Vytis

This would mean we have Vikings, Normans and Varangians ??
This game isn't being developed by Paradox, is it? :)

Well, we are not :) No Normans and Varangians (btw, who said Varangians will be included?!) for Baltic provinces. It would be totally incorrect to put them overthere. :)

[Finellach]

The suggestion(at least my) was that Varyags or Varangians(or however they are called) be placed area of Russia and mostly in Central/East Europe. However there is general opinion Crossbowman's should be availabe in Baltic region. ;)