Units Availability

[Frujin]

Hello,

There was MANY questions about what unit is available where and how, special units etc. Here I'm going to explain the exact mechanics in Knights of Honor.

First of all, you can not say that THIS or THAT unit is a special. It depends on the Kingdom you are playing with and the territories you control. Let's see how the unit selection is formed in one single Province.

First, you can train up to 16 different units in a Province (siege related are not included in this number). That means that whwn you select a castle, and click on a "train army" button a window opens with UP to 16 different units inside. It is very rare case to have 16 available units in a Province. Usually (in most Provinces) you have 8-10 average.

The available units are divided into 3 distinct groups - Kingdom specific, Province specific and Common.


1. Kingdom Specific units are units which THAT kingdom can train everywhere.

For example, France has a Feudal knights and Man-at-arms as a specific unit. I.e. France can train these two units in all Provinces they currently own.

2. Province spcific are units, which you can build if you own the Province they "live" in. And only there. The gold price of these units is increased (sometimes doubled, sometimes trippled) for you.

For example, one of the provinces where teutonic champions are available is Kurland. Lithuania can train Teutonic champions if they manage to conquer Kurland, but teh price will be higher for them.

3. Common units are units which "live" in the province and can be trained by anyone who has that province at normal price.

For example, if Germany conquers Moravia, they will be able to train Slavic axeman at the same price anyone else.

You must have in mind that Some province specific units can be also Kingdom Specific units.

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Let me give you few examples:

Take the Province of Kurland. Amongst others, we said that Teutonic Champions are living there, but they do not live in Livonia. Normally they cost 1200 gold and 100 food. Also, we set for Teutonic Order, that they have Teutons as a specific unit. That means, that when Teuton Order owns Kurland and Livonia, they can train Teutons for the 1200 gold price in BOTH provinces - because they have it as Kingdom Specific unit (i.e. can train them everywhere). Now imagine that Lithuania conquers both Livonia and Kurland. The Lithuanians can't make Teutons in Livonia, because they do not "live" there. But they can train them in Kurland, because Teutons "live" there. Teutons is a specific unit and has increased price for "foreigners". And it is tripled. Which means that Lithuania can make Teutons in Kurland at a price of 3600 gold.

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So, the balance in Europe is very realistic and very interesting. There are Kingdoms which has many Kingdom Specific units. There are also, kingdoms which has no specific units, but initially, because of their location, they have "access" to many different units. One such Kingdom is Lithuania. They do not have any specific unit, but they have on their territory really strong selection of units. They have access to two or three strong European cultural areas. They have some Boyars in their eastern Provinces, Some slavic auxilia at their south east pprovinces, some Teutonic Champions and Crossbowman nearby (they need to fight with Teutonic Order to get them).

Oh, I know, it sounds a bit complex, but believe me - it is not. it is very simple and VERY natural. :)

It is like having "3 layers" in each Province. The most common low skilled units. The specific Units for the area, which live there. And those which comes from the Kingdom itself.

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Let's look at the British Isles. The Hobilar is Iris Cavalry in nature. That means that Ireland and all Irish states can train Hobilars everywhere on the map.

But the Hobilars also "live" in many British Provinces as well. England can also train Hobilars, but since they do not have it as Kingdom Specific unit - it will cost differently. For Ireland - 800 gold and 1600 for England. If f.e. Poland conquers (now that's hard :) ) Wessex, they will be able to train Hobilars at a price of 1600. But if Ireland, takes Wessex, the Hobilar is only 800 for them, coz it's THEIR :)

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Finally some notes. Templars are "no-one" unit. I.e. Noone has it as Kingdom Specific. Those who owns the Province they live in AND have the proper religion can train them at higher Price.

Crossbowman are available in some of the Provinces controlled but Teuton Order but are not specific unit for them. WHich means that Teutons can train them at higher cost.

Some Italian Kingdoms have crossbowman as Kingdom Specific unit. Which means, that they can make them everywhere on a normal price.

Finnelach, I know what you are going to ask - Croatia has Man-at-arms as a speific unit.

Gorgoroth, you have Horse Archer.

Elewyn, you have no specific unit. But at your teritorry are some Feudal Knights and more stuff available. A bit expensive for you, but you have to agree, Feudal Knights are not your NATIVE guys, although were popular overthere.

Etc. etc. etc..

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The units availability is different for differnet periods in some cases. For exampe, in first two, in Bulgaria, in the Turnov castle, we have Cataphracts and Steppe Cavalry. Both live here, but are not specific for Bulgaria. Bulgaria has Pronoi as specific unit as well as Serbia, Byzantium (which also has roman infantry and cathapract), Armenia, Wallachia, Epir, etc. In third period, Cataphract becomes Kingdom Specific for Bulgaria as well as Pronoi.

Byzantium, on other hand, has Varangians at Constantinople, but they are not Their Specific unit. I.e. Byzantines can train them at higher price. Kiev instead can make varangians at normal price.

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Uhm ... do you folks got the picture?!


:cheers:

[OSDSET]

cool, thats another thing that will make this game funner and different from other games. good work.8)

[hawk_knight]

Originally posted by Frujin

Uhm ... do you folks got the picture?!


:cheers:


we got the picture :cheers:

[Bagpipe]

Thx, Frujin. Well done:cheers:
We aren't affraid of complexity until it's "VERY natural".

But could you tell me which of existing cavalry units will be Common in Lithuania? NO ONE IS PROPER, I must say:(

[Kuno of Gersenau]

Thanks Frujin, now I see much more clear...:cheers:

[Elewyn]

Thanks, Frujin. It's great that the wall of silence has broken. It's perfect that it has broken especially in this so discused topic.
And I must say, I really like the system you showed us!! :hello:

I like especially that it is changing throughout the periods!

but I think that you also expect that not everybody will agree with everything here. One such Kingdom is Lithuania. They do not have any specific unit, but they have on their territory really strong selection of units. They have access to two or three strong European cultural areas. They have some Boyars in their eastern Provinces, Some slavic auxilia at their south east pprovinces, some Teutonic Champions and Crossbowman nearby (they need to fight with Teutonic Order to get them) It's evident that none of our suggestions how to make some kind of javelin cavalry available in Lithuania was successful.
I have two points to this:
1. tripled prize of Teutonics in Kurland for Lithuania is caused by religion? I would like to suggest Teutons available for Lithuania only if it will be catholic or orthodox. Teutonics were christian order to fight (muslims-when they were founded) and then pagans-for most of their existence. Or does it mean that Lithuania in 1350 is yet christian kingdom? I hope it will be pagan from the beggining, only can be converted to christianity and then Teutonics will be available for them (if they conquer provinces where it is possible)

2. What cavalry unit is available in Lithuania itself-I mean in realm "Lithuania"? light cavaly, which is available everywhere. And then?
Shouting for new unit is senseless I guess, shouting for extension and renaming of hobilars is not so senseless, but also is, having hobilars, caleled "hobilars", available in Lithuania would look strange, but still better (IMO), than only Light cavalry as the only cavalry unit in the realm/province of Lithuania.

Elewyn, you have no specific unit. But at your teritorry are some Feudal Knights and more stuff available. A bit expensive for you, but you have to agree, Feudal Knights are not your NATIVE guys, although were popular overthere Yea, I agree with almost all of it. Around 1000 AD there is no doubt that Feudal knights has nothing to do with Slavic non feudalized Bohemia. In 1200 I will really need to consider if yes or not, but finally I would say not, because "Iron lords" were used in Bohemia from the beggining of 13th century, from times of king Premysl Otokar I. (1197-1230).
But in 1278 when king Premysl Otokar II. died in battle of Moravian field, core of his army were just those "iron lords" from Bohemian and Polish nobility.
So I agree with you that before 1250 "Feudal Knights are not your NATIVE guys, although were popular overthere", but in times of late Premyslids after Premysl Otokar II.(1253-1278) and throughout whole Luxembourg era in 14th century "iron lords" were not only popular, but they actually represented bohemian and Moravian and also Silesian nobility more than anything else, so in language of KoH, they bacame bohemian NATIVE unit, so in late period, as it is in Bulgaria with Cataphracts, they should become kingdom specific unit. If "Germany"/Holy Roman Empire has Feudals as kingdom specific unit in late period, in Bohemia it should be the same. As I said, in late period, not before. Thanks if you consider it:)

and the last thing
. Bulgaria has Pronoi as specific unit as well as Serbia, Byzantium (which also has roman infantry and cathapract), Armenia, Wallachia, Epir, etc.
Since cataphracts were originaly in ancient times original Armenian unit which become to be used quite often by Romans-and then Byzantines, I think that Cataphracts should be kingdomm specific unit also for Armenia.

that's all. I must once again repeat that I really like the system you showed us. I think we are able to make picture now. Thanks, Frujin. I also hope that those 2 points will be considered in BSS and those little detail-bugs will be fixed (and I hope very little about little better solition for Lithuania than only Light cavalry will be available there). Thanks:cheers:

[oanej]

yeah thanks very much

[Frujin]

@Elewyn: Uhm, I can't agree about Feudal Knights in Bohemia being Kingdom Specific. As well as for Poland. Look, there are many Kingdoms which do not have some unit as their specific unit, but they do have "access" of it because of territory they own and neghboring cultures. Bohemia has Man at Arms and Cavalry as units they can make everywhere. It is tricky. We are not representing only the hight nobility. Because, especially in late medieval, almost all of Catholic Western Kings had more or less well equipped "core" made of Feudal Knights. Yes, I know Feudal Knights fought for Bohemia, Poland etc. But they still were not VERY NATIVE. :)

For example, the only Kingdoms which have Feudal Knights as Kingdom specific are: France, some Italian states and Germany (the core of HRE). All the rest (amongst them Bohemia as well) the Feudal Knights exists, but if you "loose" that Province (i.e. loose contact with this western Culture) you are going to loose your ability to train Feudal Knights.

About Cataphracts, they are from Persian origin as far as I know, but perhaps you are right about Armenia. We can change that easily.

For Lithuania, they will be able to produce Light Cavalry and swordsman everywhere as their specific units. (Please, notice that Light Cavalry is not availabale everywhere). Actually besides the militia, there is no any other unit which is available EVERYWHERE as "Province specific" or "Common" unit.

[Ioan Asen II]

It sounds realistic, "natural" as you wrote, and that's more important then how simple or how comlex it would be. May be it's a bit complex, but it's OK. Even more - you should consider it only as a plus for the game, Frujin. I don't think that we all here like 'simple' games. In fact, I think that the more realistic one thing is, the less simple it could be. After all - life is not simple, history (in particular) nether, imho...

And yes, I got the picture - and can only say: "Hurry up, can't wait to play that game!!!" :))))

[Elewyn]

Right. Please, I don't want Feudal knights to be kingdom specific unit of Bohemia, because Bohemia has no "kingdom specific unit", but because I thought they vere quite native there.

I don't know much Bulgarian history (and what i know is mainly from Byzantine point), but I think that Cataphracts became VERY NATIVE in Bulgaria same like Feudal knights in Bohemia and "german states (in Bohemia it was on higher level than in Poland (except Silesia), just the same like in whole HRE). But I understand with your arguments and I agree with it. Just I think that also Burgundy (especially if there will be Duchy of Burgundy with Burgundy and Flandres in late period) should have Feudal knights as "kingdom specific unit". And the same with other French fractions (I still hope of Languedoc and Flandre playable in high period).

With cataphracts you're right, not Armenian, but Persian origin, but they got to Byzantium through Armenia :)

Reason of writing that Light cavalry is available everywhere is simply Unit showcase, probably not updated yet to actual stay of development ;) showing all units and their availability will correct it IMO ;) :D

but more than of Lithuania or Bohemia I am now afraid of GERMANY, you understand me :( I hope it's not decided yet and if yes for Germany, so I still hope that only for the "core of HRE" in late period :)

If it's already decided, please tell us in right place...(to make us cry and shout and...)

[Frujin]

Yes, about the web site. I have to admit that it is terribly, horrible obsolete. we are quite busy recently, but soon all the website will be updated. All the things you do not know will be explained and shown there. Just few more days or weeks patiance :)

About Germany vs. HRE issue - it is already decided, but I will announce after several days, when I have more time.

[Elewyn]

it was meant as joke. I know that we should be patient coz' you're quite busy this time :)
I just hope it will be very soon (few days):)

:cheers:

PS: I HOPE, really hope that the solution HRE/Germany don't dissapoint me and most of us here...

[Gorgoroth]

Nice update Frujin. :go:
Hungary should have some decent heavy infantry as well [province specific], we had some nice heavy foot asskickers. :D

[Pope]

great, Frujin :go:

neither Vatican doesn't have Templars as kingdom specific unit?:(

[Henrik]

I must also agree i think this three-layer-system will do just fine.

It will also prevent players from rushing all over Europe the system will simply prevent it by the pricetag on special units not native to you - just imagine how exspensive it would get to raise an army at the other end of Europe ie. Denmark => Italy or France => Rusland region forexample - so the system is nice i think :go:

[Emhyr var Emreis]

:go:
BSS do their job perfectly. I like the system. I don't think it's too complex. Medieval Europe was such a mess and you found very good way between simplicity and accuratness. Just Lithuania... it's little pity.

I have also one question.
France has Feudal knights as Kingdom specific cavalry unit. Is France allowed to train Cataphracts or Pronoia as well if they conquer f.e. Turnovo castle?
Can they "produce" two cavalry units in the same castle-one kingdom and one provincial specific?

[Bagpipe]

Originally posted by Emhyr var Emreis
Just Lithuania... it's little pity.


;(

I just hope they'll diferentiate availability of light cavalry a bit.

[Finellach]

I must say I like it. :go:

Btw. Frujin you say Light Cavalry won't be available everywhere, does this mean it will not be available in Croatia? I think it should be since Croatia definately had Light Cavalry and among the best ones in Europe. ;)

I know I am boring and selfish, but if everyone can do it so can I. I'll leave the rest to Elewyn. :D :p ;)

Edit: Oh and thank you Frujin, we know you're busy. ;)

[Bagpipe]

Nobody says light cavalry won't be available in Croatia:)

[Haegemon]

Originally posted by Frujin

For example, the only Kingdoms which have Feudal Knights as Kingdom specific are: France, some Italian states and Germany (the core of HRE). All the rest (amongst them Bohemia as well) the Feudal Knights exists, but if you "loose" that Province (i.e. loose contact with this western Culture) you are going to loose your ability to train Feudal Knights.

Then which units have spanish realms?



I liked the most that Templars couldn't be specific unit, and the involvement of religions to get them. Then ¿there are units of this sort with the muslims? and they consume money or piety?