View Full Version : The Papacy
I was playing Spain and was the most dominant catholic nation having only orthodox and muslim enemies and was still excommunicated in succesive generations. I have given the papacy large donations when they were impoverished and was on good terms with them. I granted them unwanted provinces in Tunis close to them and was the one earlier on that restored Rome to them. They are relentless to can me for their relations with other less important nations with no religious affiliation. This happens with other nations I play under as well.
Is my disc cursed by the Almighty????:angel:
Quite often the Pope will excommunicate you for warring with any country that has a good reputation rating, regardless the religion. I have even had the Pope send one of my Marshall's on a Crusade, placing me at war with the country, only to later excommunicate me after the country has made peace with everybody else.
And btw, I have been at war with the Papacy before and not gotten excommunicated.
The nation the Papacy is loosely connected with the office of the Pope, not always does having good relations with the nation, The Papacy, present you good relations with the Pope.
Q.1: So then to be completely sure that I am always in good standing with the Papacy...that is not enough. Do I need to be on good terms with the nation in which the particular current pope came from so not to be excommunicated?
Q.2: When I have a pope/cleric in my court. What are the guidelines to excommunicating other nations?
When governing the church from my court I have excommunicated nations who have dishonorable kingdom power and are engaged in war with upstanding catholic nations and have alliances with non-catholic nations.
Still my pope leaves the court no matter how much i try to govern it correctly.
Its challenging to run the church and carry on wars of my own.
Once I reach a certain kingdom size, I don't care if I get excommunicated, at least while I am excomminicated, I don't have to worry about losing my very experienced cleric to the office of Pope!
And I don't know what to do to keep the Pope from leaving when asked to excommunicate someone, he has always left when I did. When my cleric becomes Pope, I break relations immediately, I find him no use sitting in my court!
I usually get excommunicated when I refuse crusade...
Largefry07
13-01-2007, 02:02
I usaully go with the most effective method in dealing with the pope. Death. Once I'm powerful enough and own most of the Catholic world I take out the Papacy. The pope is such a pain, asking for marshalls to go on crusades, getting excommucated, and losing a cleric to become the very thing that gives you a headache. However, I must stress that you need a well kingdom with an awesome military, and an old King.
I do that as well Largefry07, once I can withstand the furor of what little is left of the Catholic faction.
But I ask, why do you need an old King?
kiri_hacker
13-01-2007, 10:51
Very often when you attack a kingdom for no reason your relations with the pope decrease but if they declare war on you then you should not be excommunicated later on.... I think there should be a way in the new patch to view the pope's relations .... that way you can see what makes him angry etc
Kuno of Gersenau
13-01-2007, 11:59
But I ask, why do you need an old King?
I guess because of the diplomatic relations with the other catholics. They all get very angry on you if you eleminate papacy, but if you have an old king and he dies soon afterwards the realtions rise up a bit again, like they always do if a king dies. (same if you have good relations, they decrease as well after king's death)
I think that the papacy should be united. The pope (the cleric) should be the ruler, but won't have options a puppet king has.
If your cleric becomes pope your relations with The Papacy should increase. If some (catholic) kingdom is at wart with Papacy it should be ready for the conseqquences: it makes the Pope angry and he could get excomunicated + crusades may emerge against him.
Religious institution of Papacy and "the kingdom" should be the same.
I guess because of the diplomatic relations with the other catholics. They all get very angry on you if you eleminate papacy, but if you have an old king and he dies soon afterwards the realtions rise up a bit again, like they always do if a king dies. (same if you have good relations, they decrease as well after king's death)
Thanks Kuno, that makes sense! :go:
Largefry07
13-01-2007, 19:05
The thing that I can not stand about the Papacy is that it is a like any other kingdom. That means it may exspands if it wants to (which more than often it will). I wish that the patch would not allow the Papacy to gain any more provences.
Yes Dobber Kuno explained why you need an old King.
On a side note, the game I'm currently playing, Croitia took Rome (Papacy didn't have any other provs) and held on to it. They are at peace with most of the Catholic World. I was so happy since it happened so early in the game (my first King wasn't even dead yet).
Then go and conquer it as soon as possible. It happens sometimes that Papacy is revived. The best way to disable it is to convert Rome to other religion :go:
Largefry07
15-01-2007, 03:43
Too late. At the time my stragtey for the game did not allow me to have the tools needed to take Rome. The King of Croatia died with no heir and the loyalist took the city:angry:
I usaully go with the most effective method in dealing with the pope. Death. Once I'm powerful enough and own most of the Catholic world I take out the Papacy. The pope is such a pain, asking for marshalls to go on crusades, getting excommucated, and losing a cleric to become the very thing that gives you a headache. However, I must stress that you need a well kingdom with an awesome military, and an old King.
An old king is useful in transporting quality units like Feudal warhorse, Teuonic knights, Templars, longbowmen, to unmilitaristic provinces who have no means of generating their own fighting force, yet too imoportant to have them defended by peasants. Or sending him on a useful 5 star spy mission - spies often have shorter live span than a good marshal anyway.
As far as the Papacy is concerned I have already beaten the game many times and used the usual methods of eliminating them once I was powerful enough. The meaning for this topic was to understand how the Papacy was programmed and have fun with the intrigue. Yes I could easily eliminate them but it is far more challenging to have my own pope, be on perfect terms with papacy and micromanage the church.
I think that the papacy should be united. The pope (the cleric) should be the ruler, but won't have options a puppet king has.
If your cleric becomes pope your relations with The Papacy should increase. If some (catholic) kingdom is at wart with Papacy it should be ready for the conseqquences: it makes the Pope angry and he could get excomunicated + crusades may emerge against him.
Religious institution of Papacy and "the kingdom" should be the same.
This would have been perfect but was obviously not incorporated in the patch improvements.
--
I found it once, Previous discussions on the papacy ,but never again did it become available for me to view. Can anyone help? My apologies for computer illiteracy! I'm getting old...:biggrin:
Lord_Nick
26-01-2007, 03:45
I think you are forgetting two keys things regarding the Pope.
First, the Pope is always a Cleric from some other kingdom (say France). If you have good relations with the Papacy but bad relations with France, the French AI may tell the French Pope to excommunicate you.
Second, who is to say the Pope is not a Spy from Tunis, who infiltrated the French as a Cleric, and was then elected Pope. From the KOH website, a Spy-Cleric who is Pope can:
Excommunicate: The Spy excommunicates another Kingdom for you.
Preach Crusade: The Spy calls for a Crusade against a specific Kingdom.
If you don't remember who controls the Pope, or want to see if he is a Spy, you can do a BSSSWITCH.
but it's still ok.
You know that your spy can become a spy of foreign country and that same spy can become a puppet king in the name of that other kingdom, but you can still controll him.
In the suggestion I made pope is some kind of puppet king. The country where he's from can't ask him to hand over crown etc, but can influence excomunications or so, like it is now. Just that there wouldn't be doubble-papacy.
If a french cleric becomes the pope and you'll build your good relations with papacy, it would also affect your relations with France (but not with Tunis as you can't know he's Tunisian spy and TUnis surely doesn't want you to know it)
But your relations with France are just between you and France. Pope can't protect his original country
Double papacy never ever caused good things :biggrin:
Its ok, My Irish-American temper is calmed down now from my tirade! They will pay for their Insolence one way or another! Be Sure I will Butcher them!!
Syagrius
02-02-2007, 19:41
In my game as Provence I had taken out the Papacy since they were attacking me. But since then I am unable to sign any threaty with anyone ( I am hated very much indeed). How can I restore Papcy? By giving Rome to another kingdom?
Thanks
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