List of unbalanced and useless things in gameplay.

[Emperor_Konstantin]

Like all games, there are some unbalanced(too strong) or useless things in the gameplay of Knights of Honor.

1.The army moves too fast on ships, and it's not normal to take ship in any coastal village, even in the village of an enemy. Also it's stupid to move your army to some neutral kingdom's town, then declare war and instantly conquer the province, and then sign white peace. Armyes are not supposed to move in the provinces of neutral kingdoms. Also some marshal skills are too imba - Tactics, Healer. It's too easy. And the skills that increase the XP of some type of units are useless, because army of 1 type of units is weak and nobody makes it.
2.Also it's too easy to earn gold with merchants, by trading with lagre kingdom which you are with good relations. Large kingdoms are not interested in this and it's too easy way to earn money.
3.There is relligion unbalancing. Catholic kingdoms and Orthodox kingdoms are much better than Muslum kingdoms. Give some features to the Pagan relligion too.
4.The random placement of province features sometimes makes impossible the constructing of Cathedral or Univercity. Also it's good to have provinces with no features, so you can use them easy as military towns.
5.Some kingdom advanteges are useless, like Grand Cathedral, Age of Enlightenment.
6.With Royal Marrage it's too easy to get free lands.
7.Reffil army is too strange, for example if you have one man count of Vikings you can reffil the whole squad in every town, and most of the towns can't recruit such units. After some heavy battle most of the squads can die, and Marshal with Healer skill can ressurect whole squads and then reffil them all in province where they cannot be recruited.
8.The Morale factor in battle sometimes is too unbalanced, and your great army attacking 3 times smaller army can loose.
9.Sometimes enemy kingdoms claim and become Ultimate Emperors, not a good way to finish your game.
10.Engineering skill is waste of skill spot, every army should have siege weapons.

All other things in Knights of Honor are great and the game is too good, I only write some things that I think are unbalanced, they exist in all games. No offence:cool:.

[mammix]

1. When you move across other's kingdom proivince, your relationship decreases, i think that's normal and fair. As far ships are concerned- that's good that they move faster, i think.
2. Why it's too easy? When u have trade agreement with bigger country you should have only benefits.
3. I don't think they are better. Eg: Fatimids. I always have MUCH problems to qonquer them, Abbasids too :P They may have Jihad- when you are attacked by lots of amries it is not easy :P The south kingdoms have much potential- thay may recriut much more mershants than i can- always :P Thay have akyndii- plunder increases... And so on.
4. In newest patch (1.05) you can't see where u can build a building- maybe it will solve ur problem ;) I always may build catherdal or university on map- maybe it's a bug?
5. They aren't useless :P
6. No. Kingdoms rarely give u lands after death of king. But, true, it's irritating whan eg. Sicyli inherits all the lands of eg. Sweden (some days ago Denmark- 10 provinces inherited ALL lands from Sweden- 29 provinces.... That was "great" :D)
7. Hm... I think that's not important :P
8. It' s like in real. Army without food will centertainly loose with experienced, not hungry, great-marshaled army ;)
9. Why? Cesar had great power. He was ruling the whole Europe- your country couldn't do anything to him :P
10. If marshal doesn't know how to use this- why should he have it?

Greetings ;)

[Kuno of Gersenau]

6. No. Kingdoms rarely give u lands after death of king. But, true, it's irritating whan eg. Sicyli inherits all the lands of eg. Sweden (some days ago Denmark- 10 provinces inherited ALL lands from Sweden- 29 provinces.... That was "great" :D)
You can only inherit maximum 3 provinces. The event you noticed most probably occured due tu spy activity. A Danish spy became king and handed over the land to his lord. You're right, it's always nice to see such things.:wink:

[mammix]

no- it was written that denmark inherited lands ;) maybe bug

[knez]

Like all games, there are some unbalanced(too strong) or useless things in the gameplay of Knights of Honor.

1.The army moves too fast on ships, and it's not normal to take ship in any coastal village, even in the village of an enemy. Also it's stupid to move your army to some neutral kingdom's town, then declare war and instantly conquer the province, and then sign white peace. Armyes are not supposed to move in the provinces of neutral kingdoms. Also some marshal skills are too imba - Tactics, Healer. It's too easy. And the skills that increase the XP of some type of units are useless, because army of 1 type of units is weak and nobody makes it.
2.Also it's too easy to earn gold with merchants, by trading with lagre kingdom which you are with good relations. Large kingdoms are not interested in this and it's too easy way to earn money.
3.There is relligion unbalancing. Catholic kingdoms and Orthodox kingdoms are much better than Muslum kingdoms. Give some features to the Pagan relligion too.
4.The random placement of province features sometimes makes impossible the constructing of Cathedral or Univercity. Also it's good to have provinces with no features, so you can use them easy as military towns.
5.Some kingdom advanteges are useless, like Grand Cathedral, Age of Enlightenment.
6.With Royal Marrage it's too easy to get free lands.
7.Reffil army is too strange, for example if you have one man count of Vikings you can reffil the whole squad in every town, and most of the towns can't recruit such units. After some heavy battle most of the squads can die, and Marshal with Healer skill can ressurect whole squads and then reffil them all in province where they cannot be recruited.
8.The Morale factor in battle sometimes is too unbalanced, and your great army attacking 3 times smaller army can loose.
9.Sometimes enemy kingdoms claim and become Ultimate Emperors, not a good way to finish your game.
10.Engineering skill is waste of skill spot, every army should have siege weapons.

All other things in Knights of Honor are great and the game is too good, I only write some things that I think are unbalanced, they exist in all games. No offence:cool:.
nothing strange, in real history there were cases when 10 smaller armies won (and I'm not talking about rifelman vs. spearman here)

[Kuno of Gersenau]

no- it was written that denmark inherited lands ;) maybe bug
Maybe simultaneous action? Denmark Inherited land and at the same time spy became king of the remaining Sweden. Ok, chance isn't that high that both hapens at the same time but it is possible. At least I never had the choice to demand more than 3 provinces and didn't see anybody doing it as well...:scratch:

@Emperor_Konstantin:

First of all a belated "welcome":halloha:

To point 1: You're right it wasn't common that you could get a fleet to transport an army in every coastal village. But I think the devs just wanted to avoid all the micromanagement with the fleets.

To point 5: "Age of Enlightenment" is very usefull, you get more books and therefore you can educate your knights and integrate conquered provinces much faster.

And if point 9 takes place the player is actually the only one to be blamed...:wink:

[EmperorTrotsky]

ottomans isnt strong enough..

[Emperor_Konstantin]

Ok now i understand that most of the thingrs are right:silly:.
Anyway, it was good discussion.

[Gogo_t]

ottomans isnt strong enough..
And they could not be made better, because of the inhuman way of city conquering by these dogs..... BSS can not made the military system of these rags like "the blood tax"- Taking 4 years old bays from the captive nation \Bulgarians, Serbs and so on...\ and making them warriors, who are killing theyr parents after years \because they didn't know \ :angry: :angry:

I think that balkans must have more units- Serb warriors, Bulgarian Cavalry.....

[Elvain]

1.The army moves too fast on ships, and it's not normal to take ship in any coastal village, even in the village of an enemy. Also it's stupid to move your army to some neutral kingdom's town, then declare war and instantly conquer the province, and then sign white peace. Armyes are not supposed to move in the provinces of neutral kingdoms.I don't think the first example is possible anymore. It's extremely hard to sign a peace soon after taking a province. I think that if the victorious side offers some "security" (royal wedding or demand vasalage) the probability of an agreeent should be higher
2.Also it's too easy to earn gold with merchants, by trading with lagre kingdom which you are with good relations. Large kingdoms are not interested in this and it's too easy way to earn money.I agree that earning gold is one of the most inbalanced things (except for the weak AI in comparison to strong player). Most of gold should come from taxes and trade income shuold be rather from "transit taxes" etc.
3.There is relligion unbalancing. Catholic kingdoms and Orthodox kingdoms are much better than Muslum kingdoms. Give some features to the Pagan relligion too.Agree with the first part.
Though I disagree with the second. Catholics are by far the strongest, but the morale penalty/bonus for orthodox /muslim destroy the ballance (muslim army has +5 morale bonus when fighting against orthodox!)
I definitely agree that religious features are very few and rather poor. Importance of religion should be increased
4.The random placement of province features sometimes makes impossible the constructing of Cathedral or Univercity. Also it's good to have provinces with no features, so you can use them easy as military towns.Randomnes is another big flaw, I agree. There should be some kind of semi-randomness (so it'd be not very possible to see Finland with fertile soil while Egypt has only silver mines)
6.With Royal Marrage it's too easy to get free lands.I think it is good as long as the conqust is so easy. In fact it adds ballance so you can expand not only via conquest
7.Reffil army is too strange, for example if you have one man count of Vikings you can reffil the whole squad in every town, and most of the towns can't recruit such units. After some heavy battle most of the squads can die, and Marshal with Healer skill can ressurect whole squads and then reffil them all in province where they cannot be recruited.the marshal already has the unit. I think that if all reuirements are met, it should be possible - the remaining soldiers will train the resto of the squad - and the experience decreases I think it's not that bad
8.The Morale factor in battle sometimes is too unbalanced, and your great army attacking 3 times smaller army can loose.I think this is rather great. in history you can find dozens of examples when large army with "low morale" lost against 3 times smaller army with "high morale"
9.Sometimes enemy kingdoms claim and become Ultimate Emperors, not a good way to finish your game.durig my experience not a single AI kingom claimed the title. Just several times it was elected. You can oppose this decision and you can be sure that war against all top powers will add challenge to your game
--
ottomans isnt strong enough..
and France and Byzantia etc.
I think that the "great powers" of middle ages and "ingame great powers" should be much stronger and should have higher chance to subordinate smaller ones (but not always conquer them)

Ottomans should have much higher potential as their system of land-governance and training of superb units with extreme loyality and organization (devshirme) was unique. But it is rather for Whishlist thread :wink:
--
And they could not be made better, because of the inhuman way of city conquering by these dogs..... BSS can not made the military system of these rags like "the blood tax"- Taking 4 years old bays from the captive nation \Bulgarians, Serbs and so on...\ and making them warriors, who are killing theyr parents after years \because they didn't know \ :angry: :angry:

I think that balkans must have more units- Serb warriors, Bulgarian Cavalry.....
:scratch:
they should be stronger in game because historicaly they were much stronger. As well as France f.i.

btw devshirme was taking every 5th of 6 year old boys. So from poor christian farmer boy one could become the most powerfull man in the O.E. really terrible! Considering that the chance of a farmer boy to die was not lower than of a professional soldier of the most effective contemporary army.
The life of janisaries was so terrible that many of them later become grand viziers or later when they were given chance to have children, they were putting their own sons to Slavic families in the Balkans to become janisaries.

btw, slave armies were common praxis of middle-eastern and muslim states and caused paradox that some of Slavs (who created only very few states on Slavic-inhabited territories) ruled several taifas (states) in muslim Spain in 11th century :go:

[Gogo_t]

Yeah, but Bulgaria isn't strong as it should be too:wink:
In all my games \if I play as other kingdom, but that isn't verry often\ Bulgaria is smashed by Latins \for example\ for 5 minutes :silly: It must be the other way Bulgaria to smash Latins, as it was historicaly :wink:
I think that balkan nations in KoH \Serbs, Bulgarians, Croatinas....\ don't have good units, there must be heavy units as heavy Swordsman.... :nono: , because if you fight with good Byzantine army, and you are playng as Sebia \or Bulgaria\ there is 70% chance to lose, but if you are going to fight with excellent byzantine army... :nono: :angry:
For bulgaria, I could say that in Frist Bulgarian Empire \early period\ there must be:
- Bagaturs- Heavy cavalry, excellent morale, good speed, big chance of killing enemys......
- Bolyars \boyars\
- Heavy swordsman
- light cavalry \bulgars\- as in Elvain's mod

[Elvain]

But it's not case of Bulgaria only. It's - as I mentioned in many of my posts - matter of religious inbalance: orthodox kingdoms have too big disadvantage.

btw, to teach you something from history Latin empire wasn't wiped our by your dreamed Bulgaria but Byzantines.

in 1000 Bulgaria is just about to be completely eliminated by Byzantines, in many my games Basileos loses his war, in 1200 Bulgaria claimed to be just one of fighters for Byzantine heritage, but by far not the most successfull - empire of Nicaea managed to capture Constantinople and later Ottomans have overrun them all.
Not a single balcanic kingdom can be compared in it's effectivity to military success of Ottomans or the Mongols - they were more than just one of nomadic tribes like Bulgars who managed to rule some territory for some time and settle there and give name to local population.

Orthodox kingdoms do have strong units that could resist other states, but they don't get chance to get there in most cases - they are not able to build advanced military structures to compensate morale bonus of muslims (I don't understand why you don't complain that muslim Volga Bulgars are overpowered in comparison to Russian orthodox states - aaah I got it, Bulgars can be overpowered, but not their opponents :lol:)
France f.i. s u c k s too because it needs to build chain mail armoury to get "normal" infantry (other than just peasants) while other kingdoms need just swordsmith. Why you don't complain about inbalance in this case?

Oh, I forgot, you hardly play pther nation than your Bulgaria :lol: try some other it really is fun :go:

[Gogo_t]

Oh, I forgot, you hardly play pther nation than your Bulgaria :lol: try some other it really is fun :go:
I have tryed, but I can not watch how byzantia or other kingdom is smashing my nation... :nono:
It isn't good to be nationalist :sad:

[Traveller]

btw, to teach you something from history Latin empire wasn't wiped our by your dreamed Bulgaria but Byzantines.
they were more than just one of nomadic tribes like Bulgars who managed to rule some territory for some time and settle there and give name to local population

Now that is a clear purposeful irritation and one, which by far does not befit neither a moderator of this forum, nor a historian.
1. Since you claim to have studied history and do enter this topic, then I guess you claim to have knowledge on it. Then I'll have to remind you that it is exactly the Bulgarian king Kaloyan, who defeated the Latins in 1205 at the battle of Adrianople, just an year after they conquered Constantinople, captured their first emperor Baldwin I, "destroyed the colour of the Western chivalry" (as the chroniclers of the Crusade reported it themselves), pursued another leader of the Crusade (Enrico Dandollo), who managed to cross the 5-days distance for only 3-days, but soon died in Constantinople. Not only that, but it was exactly Kaloyan's forces, which also killed the third leader of the Crusade - Bonifacius de Monferato.
2. I would also have to remind you that it was exactly the war (and defeat) of the Latins against Bulgaria, which saved Nicea from being anihilated before even rising to any worthy to be mentioned status, as it's exactly this war, which withdrew the Latin forces, who were already subordinating "their" lands in Asia Minor.
3. Even despite of the wins of Kaloyan, which were quickly wasted by his successor (and eventual assassinator) Boril, we should also not forget that the two main Greek pretendents for the Byzantine legacy were Nicea and Epirus, of which the latter grew stronger than the first and took the upper hand, until it was totally subdued by Tsar Ioan Asen II after the battle of Klokotnitsa, thus allowing Nicea to grow stronger.
4. As for the second quote - it's the Bulgars who helped the Byzantines to repulse the final great Arab siege on Constantinople, it's the Bulgars, who first received the imperial (second after the emperor) title of kessar (in 705 - khan/kessar Tervel), it's the Bulgars who were the second after the Goths to kill a Byzantine emperor in battle (Khan Krum vs. Emperor Nikeforos, 811, Veregava Pass). Actually, if you read about Byzantine history (f.e. Ostrogorskii), you'll see that the main adversaries of Byzantium throughout its history were the Persians/Arabs/Turks in the East and the Bulgars/Bulgarians/(and later the Serbs) in the Balkans. No surprise that the greatest Byzantine emperor - Basil II - was so proud with is victory over Bulgaria (and he had many more victories as well) that even today we know him as Basil II Bulgaroktonos, the Bulgar-slayer. And I don't mention the last periods of the old Bulgars in which they merged with the Slavs, created the first great Slavic centre of culture and were recognized by Constantinople as the third empire in Europe.
So, as a historian, if you truly have a profound knowledge on the 4th Crusade matter, you would surely agree with most researchers that even if Nicea did manage to retake Constantinople (after "sneaking" up to the city while it was guardless btw) and restore the Byzantine Empire, the merit for this is by far not entirely its own.

So, please, if you want to just bash other people or other's countries, at least do this in the DMZ! With this childish behaviour you're falling very low in my eyes... :nono:



P.S. As for Volga Bulgaria - Muslim country surrounded by non-Muslims? But it's indeed a bit over-powered, although not as much as some other nations are and not as much as some nations are under-powered. To say the least - from the two Bulgarias, the Volga one was mostly a very strong trading state, not very famous for military successes, while the Danubian one was exactly the military and cultural one. So, in some way, the two Bulgaria's "characters" seem to have exchanged their actual places in the game.
KoH indeed has still a lot of room for improvement and I hope that one day we will see a new improved official version, be it in the face of an expansion or a sequel. But it would be too much to dream about KoH covering the whole of Europe, Asia and Africa, would it? I would just really like to play as India, China or Japan in the Middle Ages! Or maybe Korea - it looks quite interesting too... :biggrin:

[Gogo_t]

I think that the nomadic tribe managed to rule some territory for some time is the omly Tzardom \emipre\ that have humiliated East Roman Empire so many times :scratch:
And you may want to see the ancient Bulgarian calendar (http://bgclub.sa.utoronto.ca/bulgariancalendar.htm)

The ancient Bulgarian calendar proves to be the most accurate calendar system in existence

PS- My dreamed Bulgaria was great power in Europe, greater than your Bohemia or Czech republic

[Kuno of Gersenau]

Guys, please go back to the topic. Eventhough your discussion might be interesting it is clearly OT. Thanks.

[Elvain]

I will just ask one question. We all know the answer so no need to stay offtopic:
who conquered Constantinople after the fourth crusade? Bulgaria or Byzantines (Nicaea)?

[Gogo_t]

Nicea, but who "destroyed the colour of the Western chivalry" and captured their first emperor Baldwin I ?

[Emperor_Konstantin]

Let me remind you. Don't you think that the Tactics and the Healer Marshall Skills are too good?

[Elvain]

Nicea, but who "destroyed the colour of the Western chivalry" and captured their first emperor Baldwin I ?
who swaggers? :wink: yes, Bulgarians have beaten bunch of western knights after those knights captured Constantinople and most of them returned home and yes, Bulgarians captured the ruler of those who stayed.
You may call it "color of Western chivalry" but to be honest if you compare Klokotnica (Glory of Bulgarians over the West!) and Hittin, please tell me (try not to see it as Bulgarian) which one was more about "all of western chivalry in certain large region" against their main opponent? and was any of them any close to true "color of Western chivalry"? any closer than Ottomans defeating true "Western chivalry" at Nicopolis?

[SEMI-JOKE]btw, army of Sigismund, Holy Roman emperor, (king of Hungary and Bohemia etc.) consisting 100.000 men from hungary and Germany was beaten by band of 47 or so hussites (including women) when Prague was besieged in the beggining of hussite wars. So leave me alone with "your Klokotnica" :biggrin: We, Czechs were better :biggrin:[/SEMI-JOKE]

sorry. I should end up that teasing.
anyway if someone really needs to continue in the discussion that was started in other thread and doesn't seem to be ended, I'd be glad if you'd continue in Bulgarian clan (http://forum.sunflowers.de/showthread.php?p=350027#post350027). Why there? I think it is not question of history but of our human nature. And as I think the issue is basically between me and some of Bulgarians here

Don't you think that the Tactics and the Healer Marshall Skills are too good?definitely :go: I tried to lower their bonus in my mod.