No Europe Campaign in Multiplayer ?!?!

[Oden]

When I first tryied the DEMo, I loved the campaign in single player, and I though it wasnt in multiplayer because of the "demo version".

Now after reading some post's I noticed it is NOT in the full game ;(

Sincerily the Campaign mode is the best of KOH, and its sad not having the chance to play it with friends in Lan.

This is a desperate call for an alliance with Sunflowers, to invoke the alliance to make the MULTIPLAYER CAMPAIGN :king:

(thx for reading)

[William Blake]

I was a bit disappointedtoo, but then I though "how it could look" and I felt that its just can't be done.

Think for youself:

- In single campaning you speed the game up then everying is calm, so game moves 10 times faster, but then something happens you go back to slow speed to deal with the problem. If we play multiplayer you can have only one speed (because everyone needs slow speed at different times) so the game would take ages to play. And you can't rely of "save game" in multiplayer, because now we are playing for 3 hours, save it. But tomorrow you can play, I can't, day after - I can, you can't, and so on.

- It would take ages to play campain, if one multiplayer battle between just 2 people with decent skill and comparable armies can take hour and a half to play. For that time you have to move strategic game mode slow for all other player or 2 fighting guys just miss all game while they are fighting. Or you have to completely elliminate all manual battles which will take out half of multiplayer fun.

- If you make a small campaning map only for 2 people kingdoms it wil be no fun, because you wont have to to develop ecomomy - first army battle will decide it all. But if you make an eroupe full map for 2 players they will play against AI kingdoms 99% of the time (which is singleplayer game). If you make an eroupe map all of human players it wont be playable, bacause 30-40 people cant stay online at the same time, some leave some join, so you can't possibly gather 50 men at one moment to start the map and then play it for hours with same men.

- In single player all AI kingdoms thinks for themselfs. If you get a lot of people to play, some of them will be "clan" shman or just friends, they always will play together no matter how good it actually is for their kingdoms. So with long games with may players only uber powergamers with a lot of friends will win. Which is unfun for everyone else.

So I concluded that campaning multiplayer needs completely another game and you can't possibly play KoH europe campaning in multiplayer.

Just my $.02

[Martinus]

I think it could be done and be fun - just look at the various Paradox games (Europa Universalis, Crusader Kings and Victoria for example) to see that multiplayer can be achieved - and be quite enjoyable - in similar conditions of a strategic rts.

As far as battles being concerned, they could just be turned off for the multiplayer game, I believe.

I just hope Sunflowers will release an expansion pack with the multiplayer in Europe option available. I would certainly buy it and all the people who I have talked about the game would too.

[Nicolin de Odel]

I agree with Blake on this one, Its really not possible to have the Campaign mode on multiplayer. And where is the Honor in turning manual battles off. I've fought Sir Blake there a few times in the demo, just learning the formation and unit startegies with him has granted me, and him, the power to defeat many people on the battle field. The Battlefield is the whole of this game, not having that in a multiplayer campaign, which isn't really possible anyway, would take the heart of me and many others.

[Martinus]

I agree with Blake on this one, Its really not possible to have the Campaign mode on multiplayer. And where is the Honor in turning manual battles off. I've fought Sir Blake there a few times in the demo, just learning the formation and unit startegies with him has granted me, and him, the power to defeat many people on the battle field. The Battlefield is the whole of this game, not having that in a multiplayer campaign, which isn't really possible anyway, would take the heart of me and many others.
Well it's a matter of personal preferences, and most people would prefer a complex strategy game like KoH to be available in multiplayer, even if it cost them an ability to play tactical battles (which are themselves nothing new - there are many RTSes which do just that, without the strategy part, where KoH truly shines) in such a mode.

[Arcador]

If there are many follower of europe multiplayer campaign with no tactical battles and if begged enough maybe they will make some multiplaye code...but I won't see big difference then from Kohan, Warlords, or Civ...it will become very similar.

[Oden]

If there are many follower of europe multiplayer campaign with no tactical battles and if begged enough maybe they will make some multiplaye code...but I won't see big difference then from Kohan, Warlords, or Civ...it will become very similar.

The strategic mode of playing KOH is really diferent from the games u named there... also I am not telling to "disable" the batles from being played inside the battlefield... there must be posible to make some adjustments to make it playable in multiplayermode... mixing strategy and batle strategy....

cause I really found boring playing just batles, and also boring playing always agains the computer AI ... alliances and wars with humans are always the best

It would be great to play the europe campaign in multiplayer, mixing both gameplays... it would just demand some work for Sun Flowers, but they are a great team and I am sure they can do it. (I hope they want to)

:viking:

[Stefan]

The best solution would probably be just to incorporated only parts of the large european map into MP games. for example players could chose to involve only asia or only europe. Smaller maps would allow players to play games in a more reasonable period of time.

[Arcador]

Here we start William's thing :P
Smaller maps maybe the the solution, but many things must be changed before that, the balance will be pretty strange at that level. (all must start equald with some defensive units, and etc).
Every involving of the tactical battles will make the game very uncofortable for play. Just make several thougts what will happen if the ai goes the battle against the player for you, or what a player can do outside if you play a battle and don't see the map.

So then remains the only callc metod option. Well we will lost a thing like yelling to the other player "I cannot hold them much, I need those pikemen now! When will they come?"
Actually you can yell him again for the same thing, but since you won't lead the battle some of the feeling is lost.

[Oden]

There must be a way of making it multiplayer without loosing the "lead battle" thing...

And smaller maps are not the solution, its great to have different kingdoms like Baghdad, sweden and england playing together... with smaller maps like "asia only" it would loose a lot of fun.

[Arcador]

Well how do you suggest to happen? A simple example is - if 2 players attack you at the same time which battle you will lead ? If the battle is taking too long who will build your troops or do some diplomacy?

[William Blake]

Guys, you miss the point, battles are not the main issue:

- game speed (on slow it will take ages, on fast yu wont be able to react and every1 needs the slow speed at the different time)

- number of people you can gather to play FOR LONG time (and you need them at the same time to start)
- on small maps it will be one battle anyway, since if your best army wins against enemy best army he has nothing to stop you

- on small maps you wont have time to develop kingdom, on big maps it will take forever, people will quit the game just because of "real life calls" sindrom

- if you have big map and few human players you will play again ai kingdoms which is single player anyway

[Joohoo]

I think it could be done and be fun - just look at the various Paradox games (Europa Universalis, Crusader Kings and Victoria for example) to see that multiplayer can be achieved - and be quite enjoyable - in similar conditions of a strategic rts.

As far as battles being concerned, they could just be turned off for the multiplayer game, I believe.

I just hope Sunflowers will release an expansion pack with the multiplayer in Europe option available. I would certainly buy it and all the people who I have talked about the game would too.
so true, I'm playing a lot of Europa Universalis 2 games on internet, we use something called schedule, ever heard of that Blake? Like today i will play 9 pm CET with 6 players. It all depends if the players will show up or not.

[William Blake]

Due all respect, 6 players is a not a europe, not even close. You need a dozen.

Second, how long can you play? 2 hours, 3 hours? And others? Can you build a decent economy in such time? How many armies do you expect to rise and how many battles you expect to fight? 1,2,20,100?

You have a "schedule" for 3 hours today, after 10 minutes you got owned by 2 people, you are out of the game. You can't start a new one because you need schedule to gather a lot of people who can play it for a long time. Would it be a problem for you? Keep in mind that all you friends will be still playing that inititial game for a long time, but you dont.

What if one leaves in a hour and 2 others in 1 hour 15 minutes. Are you still playing? Because you have been building a kingdom for an hour and a half, not even fought once and now - boom, people just left. They need to fix something, make food for kids, mother called from out of town so you have to talk to her for 30 minutes, no options. Real life.

You were playing for 3 hours and built hell a lot of a knigdom, here goes final conquest, boom your windows crashed, power out, connection lost for 20 minutes. What will the others do? Wait for you? Or you lost 3 hours of hard work for nothing?

You can't save game turn by turn in KoH, so you have to freeze it and save. Now lets say you were in the middle of a battle and some guy out of dozen calls it quits and demand a save and exit. Do you think its that simple to freeze and safe a realtime game and then next day at exactly same moment then ALL of you get together load and syncronize it.

Now we play 3 on 3 battles and someone ALWAY have some trouble with connection. Do you understand that in real time KoH campaning once you just lose connection for a second you go out of sync with others and you have to be droped or the game should be freezed for all others? You have slow connection or some trouble with it - everyone will get lag and the game will be a slideshow. And you can't jsut leave - you were building your victory for so long, you have schedule.

But ok, what speed will you play? Fast or slow, varibale maybe? How do you think it will work?
......

Look I like KoH a lot, and I love multiplayers, but you can't just transfer KoH campaning to multiplayer, you need different game desing and a lot of programming. KoH campaning was designed as single player, to make it multi you need to build ANOTHER game. Both technicaly and logicaly different game.

Dont blame me.

[Martinus]

Well how do you suggest to happen? A simple example is - if 2 players attack you at the same time which battle you will lead ? If the battle is taking too long who will build your troops or do some diplomacy?
Actually, even in single player game, when you choose hard difficulty level you are *forced* to play battles in real time, i.e. it does not stop the main map. So if it is considered doable in single player, I don't see why it wouldn't be in multiplayer.

[Martinus]

Guys, you miss the point, battles are not the main issue:

- game speed (on slow it will take ages, on fast yu wont be able to react and every1 needs the slow speed at the different time)

- number of people you can gather to play FOR LONG time (and you need them at the same time to start)
- on small maps it will be one battle anyway, since if your best army wins against enemy best army he has nothing to stop you

- on small maps you wont have time to develop kingdom, on big maps it will take forever, people will quit the game just because of "real life calls" sindrom

- if you have big map and few human players you will play again ai kingdoms which is single player anyway
Have you ever played any Paradox games, like Crusader Kings?

All these "problems" are present there, and multiplayer games are much better experience than single player ones.

[Martinus]

Due all respect, 6 players is a not a europe, not even close. You need a dozen.

Second, how long can you play? 2 hours, 3 hours? And others? Can you build a decent economy in such time? How many armies do you expect to rise and how many battles you expect to fight? 1,2,20,100?

You have a "schedule" for 3 hours today, after 10 minutes you got owned by 2 people, you are out of the game. You can't start a new one because you need schedule to gather a lot of people who can play it for a long time. Would it be a problem for you? Keep in mind that all you friends will be still playing that inititial game for a long time, but you dont.

What if one leaves in a hour and 2 others in 1 hour 15 minutes. Are you still playing? Because you have been building a kingdom for an hour and a half, not even fought once and now - boom, people just left. They need to fix something, make food for kids, mother called from out of town so you have to talk to her for 30 minutes, no options. Real life.

You were playing for 3 hours and built hell a lot of a knigdom, here goes final conquest, boom your windows crashed, power out, connection lost for 20 minutes. What will the others do? Wait for you? Or you lost 3 hours of hard work for nothing?

You can't save game turn by turn in KoH, so you have to freeze it and save. Now lets say you were in the middle of a battle and some guy out of dozen calls it quits and demand a save and exit. Do you think its that simple to freeze and safe a realtime game and then next day at exactly same moment then ALL of you get together load and syncronize it.

Now we play 3 on 3 battles and someone ALWAY have some trouble with connection. Do you understand that in real time KoH campaning once you just lose connection for a second you go out of sync with others and you have to be droped or the game should be freezed for all others? You have slow connection or some trouble with it - everyone will get lag and the game will be a slideshow. And you can't jsut leave - you were building your victory for so long, you have schedule.

But ok, what speed will you play? Fast or slow, varibale maybe? How do you think it will work?
......

Look I like KoH a lot, and I love multiplayers, but you can't just transfer KoH campaning to multiplayer, you need different game desing and a lot of programming. KoH campaning was designed as single player, to make it multi you need to build ANOTHER game. Both technicaly and logicaly different game.

Dont blame me.
Well, you play with mature people you know and who are interested in such a game (for example in our Crusader Kings campaign we play once or twice a week for about 3 hours - obviously if someone can't play at a given time, they either have a sub or the kingdom is taken over by the AI for the time being and then the player takes it when he is back; if someone is eliminated, he or she can just take another AI kingdom to play etc.) - and it can be easily done. Of course if your experience with multiplayer games is limited to random ladders on battlenet and the like, I can see why you are so sceptical.

Also, if slow connection of some players was something that should discourage developers from making multiplayer games, there would be no multiplayer games at all.

[Arcador]

We all view from different angles.
-I think in such multy the players must know eachother well or have some sportmenship, otherwise the fun may turn to backstabbing and myssery doing with the *problems* of the multy.

[Martinus]

We all view from different angles.
-I think in such multy the players must know eachother well or have some sportmenship, otherwise the fun may turn to backstabbing and myssery doing with the *problems* of the multy.
This is a must - I never was a big fan of various "match making" systems, such as battlenet - nothing beats a game with your buddies.

[Noldy]

They should really put campaign into multiplayer.