View Full Version : Diplomacy seriously NEEDS improvment (and other things that need a fix in patch):
Listed from most important changes needed to lesser ones:
1:
There's TOO much of it and it flip flops TOO MUCH!. The AI needs to initiate diplomacy to the human player AND to the other AI's about 25% as often as it currently does. RIght now it is clearly talking to the other Ai's too much and causing all sorts of grief for itself, even the smallest nation is usally at war with 10+ others at once. This can't possibly help the happiness of the people.
This is clearly a problem as the AI cannot maintain alliances very well, is easily bought off to make war, which only hurts its own interests usually, and in general makes the situation very easily manipulable by the human- but then the situation flip flops in 2 minutes anyway.
Example: I get war declared on me all the time. I instantly ask for an audience- ask for peace- get it- rinse and repeat... that's just stupid. It happens even with "honorable" people I have non-agression pacts with. They declare war- I ask for peace, get it- get a new non-agression pact, one minute later they decalre war. Do they not have a Kingdom power rule they have to play by?
2:
The PRICE the AI pays for hostages is WAY TOO MUCH!!!!!!!!! There is no way I myself would pay much for an untrained hostage unless he has some SIGNIFICANT skills in battle or spying or whatever... This is such an easy exploit to get way too much money! I have 50,000 or so in the bank all the danged time... so silly. AI should let them rot in my dungeon, AND it should cost me money to HOUSE him there- he IS nobility after all.
3:
There needs to be a price paid for diplomacy so that you do it more thoughtfully and with regard to an overall plan of action. I'm not convinced it should be free like it is, and as easy as it is. It is as simple for me to contact the Abazids as my neighbors in York... that doesn't make much sense. I should only be able to contact people I encounter and establish relationships with- for example maybe via a diplomatic knight, or by paying SOMETHING initially and then regularly at a lower price to maintain an diplomatic service in their nation.
I think paying like a 1000 to initiate diplomacy and then a regular fee of say 5 to maintain diplomacy with a nation would be good. Or something else- the system is too easy as it is right now.
4:
The Kingdom power concept is pretty easy to manipulate- with only 6 or so provinces, getting 1000 piety is no big deal in about 1 minute of time. And as above, ransoming for 20,000 or so makes $$ no big deal. Why wasn't piety allowed to go >1000 and then cost>1000 when you got really big? As it is it's very simple to maintain at maximum and just buy your way out of kingdom power problems.
Angryminer
08-10-2004, 18:08
About 1:
Frujin said that the first patch will fix the behaviour of the AI.
About the rest:
These are just balancing-issues. I guess the devs will take your opinion into account when they work on the patch. :go:
Angryminer
I hope so. As it is now, the game is just not fun past the first two hours or so of building up a strong kingdom. Can't say I'm going to be recommending any more of my friends import this thing over to the US... It needs some serious rebalancing and the AI needs some serious help.
Dang, wish they'd let me beta test this for them...
Webmaster
08-10-2004, 19:09
i am going to collect the points for the QA and the devs, but it is not mine decision to make what will be in de patch and what not
I agree on 2, too easy to took the big money.
The most stuff is cut off, since the game is real time and it make it complicated for play. In Civ series you can manipulate a lot more stuff, but when you got stronger the turns can go really slow.
I agree the Kigdom Power is too easy to upgrade - it gives a huge bonus, +15 hapiness and a lot of gold. for very little gold cost (especially at the beggining)
Gee man (dearmad) you stated your points like "this game will **** badly if you don't do my suggestion" Go a bit more calm.
I agree on 2, too easy to took the big money.
The most stuff is cut off, since the game is real time and it make it complicated for play. In Civ series you can manipulate a lot more stuff, but when you got stronger the turns can go really slow.
I agree the Kigdom Power is too easy to upgrade - it gives a huge bonus, +15 hapiness and a lot of gold. for very little gold cost (especially at the beggining)
Gee man (dearmad) you stated your points like "this game will **** badly if you don't do my suggestion" No middle condition, just the two extreem points. So if you see this game as not fitting to your style, you can try with the other alternatives.
No, man, I didn't. I stated things plainly so that my points are clear, easy for the devs to read without wasting time, and I don't spend hours writing stuff like this when I have other serious things to write that actually matter to my life as far as making a living goes...
Simple as that. They're opinions. I state them clearly which some people wrongly infer means I state them rudely.
I'll never understand why people can't take constructive criticism- I never offer a "this ****s," oonly a "I don't like" and "here's WHY" AND "here's how it could be FIXED." Do you do that?
Ok, my mistake, I accept it. No need to argue offtipics. I apologize for the inconvenience.
parachute
09-10-2004, 02:52
I agree with dearmad.
This game seriously needs a patch to make it stay interesting after 2 hrs of play. Biggest problem is diplomacy and army AI.
The Diplomat - Knight is a great idea. Or: Have another resource for diplomatic actions or use piety (not much used ATM) as diplomatic currency (e.g. spend piety for diplomatic actions)
The game will fail if it is not improved considerably.
Nice EU clone though.
I agree about the hostage price. I can get 20000 in one go. The general would not have cost that to the ai and probably would not be worth that. If were an heir or a last experienced general - though someone down to one good general probably does not have too much money.
Drake Maethor
09-10-2004, 10:20
I just got 2, hummm, how to say it...? Find 2 things strange in this game.
First! You can have diplomatic relationships INMEDIATELY with anyone across the border! OR THE SEAS!!! Like if I just pick up the phone and call from Ulster to Bagdag and say: "hey pal! wannabe my ally???"
I mean, nothing really bad with it, but I don't believe that sound very medieval... :sick:
All those relations among Kingdoms! Kingdoms that actually didn't know too much about each other.
Second... The little excesive trading!
My is so easy to become millonaire! Ok, no problem with it! But was trading that high in the Middle Ages??? Marco Polo and trading with far east was something totally amazing in Medieval. Yes I know... you cannot trade so easily with Asia, you need the Harbor but wait! I can trade with the Golden Horde just clicking in the ruler's face!
:scratch:
Taking into account these things, I think the game should be a little more focusing in your local part of the world... Like having layers.... From the well known neightbours (nearest layer) to the almost unknown distant world (last layer)...
Each one with different kind of interactiveness...
Does that make sense?
Of course all this is just a basic idea. More ellaboration and complexity is free to be added:
Like the event of a Crusade being declared thos layers can change...
OK, just those thoughts from the game designer inside me! :p
But anyway of course the game is rocking! ;)
Angryminer
09-10-2004, 10:56
@ Drake Maethor
1. This is a game and not CNN.
2. You usually only have one or two merchants. This one merchant has to make up for all trading-connections of a medieval nation. I think it's good the way it is.
@ parachute
This game alrady succeeded in making me addicted :go: .
There is no way it could fail...
Angryminer
If we are going to catch to realism...I can list here things for an hour and more. This is not the point - the point is to be good for the game.
Anyway I agree the AI give too much for a prisoner.
guys be happy about it in RTW i have to bring my diplomat all the way there and that sux! trust me
diplomacy is fine! only they demand to much attack
Actually, I like that aspect of bringing the diplomat all the way there- it simulates well the diea that you talk more often to your neighbors than people across the globe when, in fact, it is peaopl who must meet face to face. You diplomat then just lives over there and anytime you want you can talk, until he dies of old age, etc...
And there is just too much money, food, books, and people floating aruond the KoH economy. It makes everytown developed within a few hours of play, raising armies absolutely not a problem, getting knights and replacing them not a burden, training them to 5 stars (spies and traders) easy, paying off people to stop wars unchallenging.
In fact the best challenge from the game so far is managing the LIMITED number of marshells I can have to patrol my entire Kingdom. Take note here- LIMITING the players resources = challenging the player a little. No limits = no challenge. And I find my resources unlimited by the time I have 4 or so provinces. Getting to those 4 provinces is the most fun , interesting part of the game so far.
The artificial and RAPID creation of wealth so easily through STEALING it with your spies, raiding, and hostage taking means I have NO TAX anywhere anytime, which means I usually have NO REBELS beyond the few that get spawned for other reasons, which means there's no real kingdom being simulated here. I'm not in anyway facing a challenge managing my people. I would really like to see that challenge added (as it is in the first moments of the game), but I fear it would crack the AI in half.
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My suggestions to fix the over heated economy (using 1000 scenario where that matters):
No piety when excommunicated.
When you take a hostage YOU PAY $$ while he's in prison, he is your GUEST, a nobleman, and shall be treated as such... until you behead him at least. This means you want to get rid of him fast as you can- if you can't, then yuo behead him worsening relations with that enemy.
AI pays about 1/10th the amount it pays now for ANY hostage. At any rate, no MORE than 2000, ever...
Town production of piety should be cut in half globally- towns... piety? I don't get it.
NO MONASTERIES on the MAP at ALL to start except for a few rare ones in key provinces. You build these or allow them to be built. Once built you LOSE tax $$ as the populace is donating money or something to them. This way the balance between church and state becomes alittle more quarrelous, as it is now they get along too harmoniously. Which do you want, piety or gold? Right now we have BOTH in abundance.
Monasteries are DESTROYED if you lose your christian religion... and must be rebuilt- not instantly popped up again as it is now.
Cut the number of farms on map in HALF. Cut overall food production in half.
Where is the plague in this game? It should occassionaly cut swaths of death through the land... can be ameliorated (but not completely avoided) by good city development and/or lack of harbor... Low population = lower taxes and money = more interesting game play. The plague would also not affect any one kingdom but many so it would not be a game ruiner.
Cut Kingdom power positive $$ earnings to a tenth of what they are. My last game ended with it contributing 600 in a total earnings of 3000, 1/5th of my economy due to kingdom power? It pays for itself too rapidly. It costs almost nothing to raise it.
Note that kingdom power is easily manipulable due to the overabundance of resources, GOLD especially, but being able to get to 1000 piety with 5 or so provinces in under a minute is too much too. This makes diplomacy that much less important and maintaining good relations that much easier.
INCREASE the slope of the cost curve for knights... paying 10 for 1 is good! That's about right in the beginning, but 150 for 5 of the same type is too cheap. The formula should be X^2*10, where X is number of knights. So 5 costs 250.
Building times should (believe it or not) INCREASE by about a factor of 2... this combined with less gold will make builders perhaps valuable knights. As it is, they are not important in the game at all.
Take the FARMER KNIGHT or whatever he is OUT of the game and replace him by a Diplomat knight-
1 knight lets you talk to border regions
2 diplomat knights lets you talk to all regions in the game. AND gain that information data you get for free now on other kingdoms, but ONLY on the kingdoms bordering you.
3 diplomats gains you that information on ALL the kingdoms.
If you get a spy appointed as a diplomat: You have a chance ruin relationships or create harmonious relationships between the host nation and any other they can contact. Pretty simply but pretty helpful and powerful.
KINGDOM power should NATURALLY FLOAT back down to 0 so you must constantly invest in keeping it up at 5 if you find that valuable to do. Right now it just sits at 5 all the time... offend someone, buy it back up in a minute... no real game play added at all. If it does this already- SPEED it UP- mine didn't move at all in hours.
New line in economy balance sheet: War waste. The more wars you're involved in the BIGGER this drain on your finances gets. It represents all the stuff you have to buy to make war, all the greed of your administration who see war as a way to profit (very historical) and MOST IMPORTANTLY: Makes raising a WAR TAX a real possibility and/or need. As it is now, hostage taking beats war tax all about the ears. This line item shouldn't be a HUGE burden, but enough to make you think about how to pay for war.
The formula for books should cut at least in HALF the number written in towns... Clerics and universities should write 2x their amounts. Right now I can train 5 star spies in about 3 minutes with only 4 or provinces.
I can't think of what it would be, but there needs to be a more compelling reason to let your daughters get married than what is in the game now... as it is... I let mine rot in the nunnery so to speak. Not worth the risk. Too little reward.
ANyway, I hope some of these suggestions can be considered. The game has some real potential, but as it is right now, the "game" of it is a little too unbalanced, IMO.
Sir Turylon
09-10-2004, 20:17
Few things that could be included in the patch.
1. Why is there an option for you to demand a country to do something bad, but there is not an option to demand the declare peace with another nation? I find it odd that if you have united relationships with two countries that are at war, you cannot flex your diplomatic power to try to convince them to stop the war.
2. Along those lines, there is no option for "I'll give you this if you give me that." The AI can do this. When they demand something, they can follow up and try to convince you to do what they asked if they give you a tribute. Why was this option NOT given to the human player? It seems that the AI has more options than the human player... this should not be.
3. There is no option to try to improve relations outside of tribute. How many times have you received a message saying "We are pleased to see you doing ..... to the evil nation of ....."? This goes along with the whole concept of limited diplomacy for the Human, but unlimited diplomacy for the AI.
4. Diplomacy should really be delayed. Not to the extent that some others are commenting about... I'd propose that you must wait a few ticks for a response. Example. I'd like to negotiate a trade agreement with Novograd, I'm playing Scotland. I'd have to wait 10-15 turns since my messenger must travel by boat to the province of Finland.
5. There should be NO diplomacy between two countries if a crusade is called against the one. Diplomacy should be greyed out when you are in a crusade against an infidel kingdom. You could then try to negotiate through a 3rd kingdom that still has access, but it should cost you kingdom power and piety to do so. Since when do good Catholic kingdoms negotiate alliances with infidels? :nono:
6. Merchants should be able to go on more than 1 trade route. Let's say I have Earl Jim who is a merchant. I have trade agreements with Germany AND Denmark. Earl Jim would then split his time between trading with Germany and Denmark. The merchant could only handle 2 trade routes though. The alternative would be to change the merchants and instead of having one per trade route, have one manage trade overall. You'd need at least one dock... then traveling "trade vessels" could then go to those docks and the merchant could oversee the trading. Right now it seems that to be great in trade, you need 7 merchants and that limits your knight openings. Now, yes, it is important to balance things out... But you get so little benefits from taxing your people that taxes are useless in the beginning. Since your people can still revolt when you're provinces are in the -15% to -20% (I've had 3 rebels appear at once in a province with -15% happiness) you are force to keep no taxes just to make sure you do not need a marshall in each region just to take care of the rebels...
I'll post other "possible improvements" later on.
Diplomacy seems to be limited for the Human, while the AI has many more options at what to do.
PS. Why do the AI never sue for peace with you? They never want it... You have to initiate peace talks...
the knightly sword
09-10-2004, 22:26
dearmad is more then right. the diplomacy is wacked all the kingdoms even the small ones have atleast 10 kingdoms on there selfs. 1 other thing that isnt mentiond is the problem with loyalists and rebelions. there should be a building or an outpost wich can be bought and takes a sloot in a towns bulding capicity . it spawns armys against rebelions and loyalists and protects the farms,etc etc from being plundered. and the army units can be upgraded in the outpost. i had war with italy once i cracked there kingdom they had atleast 7 provinces and i had 10 on the same location so i started to conquer the most of his land and suddenly rebelions loyalists appear with big number . same time as my knights are in the italian front they almost got 7 farmes plunderd.
got 7 farms plunderd so a little patch should fix that
About diplomacy. there should be something that limits the number of kingdoms you audience at 1 time. right now you can audience all kingdoms in just a minute.I would like something like Europe universalis where you had a certain amount of diplomats ( 6 i think )
at one time.when you sended 1 to audiesce then you had to wait sometime for him to return". This will add some extra strategy to the game has you wont want to waste your diplomats and try to use them wisly. :)
One thing about the rebels and such... I once had two spies playing tag team against just one other Kingdom (Scotland) and they got appointed marshalls... I caused one to rebel ALL the scottish armies... then as soon as the other had an army did it again, and did this back and forth for about 20 minutes! My spies were both 5 star spies before they started and my King was 3 in intrigue...
Scotland kept trying to field an army and I'd bring his entire army down in one fell swoop... Funny thing is scotland never really got very pissed at me for doing this... even when they *finally* caught one of my spies... AI needs some help here.
It WAS fun to bring down Scotland in this way- they went from vasselizing York to being York's vassel... :)
One thing the AI *appears* do to pretty commonly is infiltrate your kingdom with spies... but I wonder if this isn't done in a way that is not by the same mechanics we use. Also, they don't ever get away with much against me... hm.
I suggest this, if you got an unasigned spy in your court, make him help you catch enemy spies ( give penalty to their operations). - seems this is already in the game
Maybe catching enemy spy has a chance not to discover whom was him. Also make it somekind of learn. If it hires 3 times enemy spies as marshals, to try next time with his prince or something.
About diplomacy. there should be something that limits the number of kingdoms you audience at 1 time. right now you can audience all kingdoms in just a minute.I would like something like Europe universalis where you had a certain amount of diplomats ( 6 i think )
at one time.when you sended 1 to audiesce then you had to wait sometime for him to return". This will add some extra strategy to the game has you wont want to waste your diplomats and try to use them wisly. :)
I was thinking something along the same lines, but it might be easier for the devs to make the diplo action cost something that's already in the game - books or gold would come to mind. Besides, EU had it that you couldn't spam diplomats but had to wait a while before the next one could be dispatched.
I commented in my first impressions post that indeed the AI does too much diplomacy too fast. It doesn't know when to stop leading wars and focus on economy. Perhaps that could be something influenced by the ruler traits (which I feel is how it should be), but overall the AI is way too bellicose. Seeing kingdoms sprawl madly and then crumbling to two or three provinces happens all the time and fast at that.
My main quibble with diplo at the moment is that you cannot follow a long term strategy of who to be friends with, who to corner, who to subvert, because the balance of power is shifting so quickly that you can hardly keep up with it. Making diplomats courtiers sounds like a good idea, but since it takes one of the nine precious slots, it should be a powerful option, i.e. easily improving relationships, having an additional range of options, etc.
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