Game flaw with avoiding spies: too easily done.

[dearmad]

It's easy to make sure you NEVER have any foreign spies. ONLY hire family members... keep them in their positions as you go through the generations... voila.

This is a serious game flaw IMO, as it means the AI should be playing like this too and avoiding my spies.

Now, while I think this is a reasonable thing to do, it is reasonable only up to a point. So SOME of your knights you should be able to depend on, as they are family, but not ALL.

My FIX(es):

Knights who are family members die of natural causes after a time. Family Member (FM) knights represent an actual person, so they die. NON FM knights represent a job position filled by some staffer and then his traineee when he dies, etc... so you can ignore their natural deaths.

OR

When the king dies, all the new king's brothers leave their positions... mysteriously murdered by the new king... or just more interested in pursuing their own personal agendas... so you need to staff people from buying new knights- thus risking getting a spy.

OR

Just apply a RULE: You can ONLY ever have 3 FM knights at a time. Period. Simple as that. Done deal. Simplest solution I've offered and can think up. What's new here is that the computer needs to remember that even though you're now paying the old FM knights from the previus generation, they STILL count and you can't appoint any new FREE ones from the latest family until those knights are cleared out.

Anyway, NEEDS a fix!

[Lighthope]

What if you have a small family?

At the most, you can only have four of the positions filled. One king and three princes. Eeryone else you have to hire.

Lighthope

Pearls of Wisdom - If there is no God, who pops up the next Kleenex?

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[Frujin]

The family members can turn into enemy spies (i.e. bribed) .. so you are not avoiding AI actions actually :)

[Angryminer]

That's quite cool...

I really didn't expect you to think of such minor things, but you did...
"In Frujin we trust."
:go:

Angryminer

[dearmad]

Um... they can? Um... how does that happen? ;(

I'm a little scared now. But seriously how doesa that happen given the mechanics of them being born- I turn them into something. How does the AI get ahold of them and turn them into a spy? They "buy" a new knoight from some pool of already existing ones and they "happen" to buy one of my already existing knights? Does this happen to me too. Do I get lucky like this sometimes?

Or is it that the AI doesn't follow the same rules... so my knights just turn randomly into spies and were enver really under the employ of the AI because the mechanics for the AI are compeltely different...

C'mon, this should be explained so we know how the game is being played.

[Shimo]

@dearmad - When your king dies, only the heir stays in your court. The heir's brothers are no longer in the court so that counters a part of your issue.

[dearmad]

Not true. Mine stay there- I just pay them now. That's what happened to me.

I've had a cleric in my court from about 5 generations back and a spy from 4 generations back... I trust them implicetly as they were the old king's brothers...

[Frujin]

Very rarely, if you have low KP, and/or weak King in espionage, and no Good spy protecting your court (i.e. not assigned to go somewhere) it is possible for the AI to bribe some of your so to say roayl blooded knights. The chance is not big (we decided to make it very rare, coz it can be shoking) but still exists.

[Damn Dirty Ape]

For some stupid reasons my family never has enough sex thus im glad if they only have one son... Filling your entire knightbar with family..Dream on

[Shimo]

@dearmad - oh i get it. mines weren't employed as knights at the time the king died so that's why they went away. i think if i had them as knights it would be as you said. that's good to know, i avoided hiring them b/c i though they had a limited life too.

[dearmad]

Well then Frujin, I think instead of the AI playing by mysterious mechanincs not avialable to the player, a simpler solution would be to have the limit be 3 family members at all times. Just flag who they are and allow no more. This opens up the field to the AI.

[Arcador]

Maybe we can do the same to the AI?

[dearmad]

If so, it's not under our control. You hire a person, make them a spy, send them off.

I've had spies hired as spies, merchants, clerics, and marshalls- none of them gets the option to bribe a family member... kill them, yes, but not bribe them.

[Frujin]

Uhm ... marry your daugher dearmad ... that's the key :)

Your daughter at foreign courts will boost a lot your spies performance.

[dearmad]

Yeah, I got that. But none of my duaghters has given me the option to bribe away their family... yet. DOES this happen?

I used planting my daughters against Scotland once to seriously ruin their kingdom through my spies. So if I marry another's daughter then they get a chance to bribe my family members?

See, that's what I'm asking- is there a way I can bribe their family members or make it more likely?

Too much is hidden beneath the surface and while you might think it is apperent due to it making "common sense" a lot of things that would make "common snese" don't work in the game- so some explanation of the mechanics (if not mentioned in the manual) would be helpful. That family members can be bribed is NOT mentioned... how it happens is therefor not mentioned... etc...

The princess working in another court IS mentioned... and inheriting the other court by offing their other family members makes perfect "game" sense...

I still say limiting the # of family members in the player's court is a simple, elegent solution to something any decent player should do: staff it out with as many trustworthy people as he can so the AI can't infiltrate the court. This way it CAN be infiltrated and in a way that makes good game sense- and is fair to both the AI and the player. So you cna mentally keep track of who is family who is not and watch them a bit more carefully...

[dearmad]

Bump from the grave- Never DID get an answer on this... only hints and rumors. So does anyone know what the heck frujin was talking about!?

[Doux]

Wow, interesting point. Frujin actually hints that the player could be able to bribe? Hmm!

I never tried it out, so far, marrying & spying. Maybe I'm too good..never turn against your family.

[Gallifrey]

I've never had any luck with using Spies, so I'm not at all familiar with the intricacies of espionage, but it's my impression that if you marry a Princess to another kingdom, your Spies will have easier access to that kingdom. What that entails I have no idea. I've never had a Spy hired as anything other than a Marshal.

I find the whole diplomacy via marriage and espionage aspect of the game to be sorely lacking. An entire royal family generation can come and go while you wait for a Spy to be hired.

[Elvain]

to have some success in espionage you need patience
Most of hired knights are marshals as they die most often. But if you wait your spy can become a king even as marshal and it gives you nice options...

also having spy hired as merchant or cleric is nice :wink:

[Doux]

Meh, I've never had a spy hired and governing a province. And when I -finally!- had a puppet King, the bloody Spy went for his own!