Neural Eclipse
15-04-2005, 01:40
I don't know about you guys, but using horse archer type of units feels like cheating when I play, especially when it's the steppe cavalry. I recently tried fielding just 9x of them as my regular army, going for all the best upgrades possible for them and after the upgrades, they practically became invincible, as if they weren't strong enough to begin with. And once they got up to 3 stars, it was just over for anybody or anything they came across... I'd only lose single digit numbers of horsemen here and there to fluke attacks (like not paying attention and walking into a ballista tower during assault, but at 3 stars, ballista tower is terrible against them).
Though, if I was going up against a huge castle, I'd usually bring in a second marshal with some siege equipment to make a hole in the wall faster, but it wasn't truly necessary. I could have just slashed through the gate.
Anyway, here's where the question-title of the thread comes in. If you look at the Mongol Horde, they were ridiculously effective in history, as the horse archer types are in the game, but how is the AI supposed to deal with this threat if the most armored units it cranks out are... well, actually castle guards (since they are treated as heavy armor, which gives a -50r CTK penalty on the arrows), but those go down to a few volleys. Plus I can always camp to get more arrows. And that -50r seems to go away after squad/marshal upgrades (not technically, but the guards die almost as fast as axemen to arrow volleys after unit xp and marshal upgrades).
I really feel that I could only be defeated by another horde of cavalry, preferably uber-armored at that. Enemy marshal knight squads do take a few volleys of arrows and I would imagine that feudal knights would be an even bigger pain; however, since I field a horde of these horsemen, even if I was charged by a few feudal knight squads, I could still be able to defeat them... though 9 vs 9 I would lose, but then the steppe cavalry can run away, since they are faster and the proper use of tactics trying to avoid frontal confrontation as much as possible would help there too, and technically the knights are a far more expensive unit. Still, they would be hurting after assaulting an upgraded horde of steppe cavalry.
The main problem might lie in the exp system... a horde of steppe cavalry is a little hard to use at first at their most basic level with 0 marshal and troop experience. Friendly fire leads to a terrible slaughter, but with upgrades, it feels cheesy, as they start shooting as if they are using repeating crossbows (at 3 stars, they seem to have a higher ROF or may be it's just me and yes, they are effective enough to go through several dozen battles in under two hours and not lose any of them.. gotta love time speed up at proper spots~). Marshall upgrades lead to no friendly fire, faster movement (as if they weren't the fastest unit in the game) and higher arrow capacity. This is the reason I was going to originally post this in the modding forum, but this isn't something hard to mod. I'm going to play with those values in my spare time, but the thing is, I'm compelled to edit unit statistics, but this is where my question is. They were that effective back in the day, so it'd be cheating making to make them weaker, hence a dilemma ^_^ Can't really do away with exp system either, since it makes some sense and the military aspect of the game would be a little drier without it... :rolleyes:
Anyway, it's great that the game captured the historical accuracy of how effective these types of units were, but it does kill balance much like it did in real life. I don't know how I feel about that. I prefer realism most of the time, but when I can stomp through Europe untamed, it doesn't feel as fun (playing on a modified more hard level doesn't help either... still too easy) as it would have otherwise.
Granted I could handicap myself by playing as some other nation, but that's no fun either, since I'm Russian and I always have wanted to use hordes of horse archers. I guess I got what I deserved :biggrin:
Anyway, what do you guys feel about this? And is it, once again, a stupid AI problem? If I was the AI I'd build a crapload more archers and line them up on walls to duel against my cavalry to at least make me suffer some losses, but all AI ever does when assaulted is move all of its units close the keep/away from any of my units that approach, which is a downright retarded tactic to use with their ranged units. The melee ones I can understand, since they can't reach my cavalry in any possible capacity, unless I'm inside the castle and they are swarming me and I am not paying attention, but why archers? Oi.
Though, if I was going up against a huge castle, I'd usually bring in a second marshal with some siege equipment to make a hole in the wall faster, but it wasn't truly necessary. I could have just slashed through the gate.
Anyway, here's where the question-title of the thread comes in. If you look at the Mongol Horde, they were ridiculously effective in history, as the horse archer types are in the game, but how is the AI supposed to deal with this threat if the most armored units it cranks out are... well, actually castle guards (since they are treated as heavy armor, which gives a -50r CTK penalty on the arrows), but those go down to a few volleys. Plus I can always camp to get more arrows. And that -50r seems to go away after squad/marshal upgrades (not technically, but the guards die almost as fast as axemen to arrow volleys after unit xp and marshal upgrades).
I really feel that I could only be defeated by another horde of cavalry, preferably uber-armored at that. Enemy marshal knight squads do take a few volleys of arrows and I would imagine that feudal knights would be an even bigger pain; however, since I field a horde of these horsemen, even if I was charged by a few feudal knight squads, I could still be able to defeat them... though 9 vs 9 I would lose, but then the steppe cavalry can run away, since they are faster and the proper use of tactics trying to avoid frontal confrontation as much as possible would help there too, and technically the knights are a far more expensive unit. Still, they would be hurting after assaulting an upgraded horde of steppe cavalry.
The main problem might lie in the exp system... a horde of steppe cavalry is a little hard to use at first at their most basic level with 0 marshal and troop experience. Friendly fire leads to a terrible slaughter, but with upgrades, it feels cheesy, as they start shooting as if they are using repeating crossbows (at 3 stars, they seem to have a higher ROF or may be it's just me and yes, they are effective enough to go through several dozen battles in under two hours and not lose any of them.. gotta love time speed up at proper spots~). Marshall upgrades lead to no friendly fire, faster movement (as if they weren't the fastest unit in the game) and higher arrow capacity. This is the reason I was going to originally post this in the modding forum, but this isn't something hard to mod. I'm going to play with those values in my spare time, but the thing is, I'm compelled to edit unit statistics, but this is where my question is. They were that effective back in the day, so it'd be cheating making to make them weaker, hence a dilemma ^_^ Can't really do away with exp system either, since it makes some sense and the military aspect of the game would be a little drier without it... :rolleyes:
Anyway, it's great that the game captured the historical accuracy of how effective these types of units were, but it does kill balance much like it did in real life. I don't know how I feel about that. I prefer realism most of the time, but when I can stomp through Europe untamed, it doesn't feel as fun (playing on a modified more hard level doesn't help either... still too easy) as it would have otherwise.
Granted I could handicap myself by playing as some other nation, but that's no fun either, since I'm Russian and I always have wanted to use hordes of horse archers. I guess I got what I deserved :biggrin:
Anyway, what do you guys feel about this? And is it, once again, a stupid AI problem? If I was the AI I'd build a crapload more archers and line them up on walls to duel against my cavalry to at least make me suffer some losses, but all AI ever does when assaulted is move all of its units close the keep/away from any of my units that approach, which is a downright retarded tactic to use with their ranged units. The melee ones I can understand, since they can't reach my cavalry in any possible capacity, unless I'm inside the castle and they are swarming me and I am not paying attention, but why archers? Oi.