Why do battles ****?

[theoverlord3]

ok i spent a lot of money and time buying the templar knights; i read some where that they are very good.

any ways see that they are almost the best inf unit i thought they would CRush peasents and simple crap units easy. WRONG :nono: :angry: :bash:

i sent a unit of templar knights to attack swords men, well i diid win but only after losing 70% of my unit :eek: what the hell. i think it would of been better if i just stuck with swordsmen, as they only cost 300 and seem to do almost as good as any thing else.

aslo to win a battle all you need is 6 archers and the rest inf, then put your commander infront of your army so when the enemy gets close they will attack him, so move him away and all of the enemy units will follow him, so you can wakl him around passing your archers, lettting them destory the enemy easy.


also why do i have to pay the for recurtment cost to repair a unit even when their only missing 1 man.

i think the battles are too quick, and needs more balancing, expensive units are only a tiny bit better than the cheap units.

but i do like the campain map though with the polictcal view, the kingdom advantages, kingdom power, and all the villages and churchs in the province.

hopefully the next game could at least bring battles to MTW standard, which is very dam good even today.

well all games have good and bad points, its just ashame that battles which are meant to be FUN most the time ar :nono: nt. :sad:

[Elvain]

i sent a unit of templar knights to attack swords men, well i diid win but only after losing 70% of my unit :eek: what the hell. i think it would of been better if i just stuck with swordsmen, as they only cost 300 and seem to do almost as good as any thing else.

[QUOTE=theoverlord3]aslo to win a battle all you need is 6 archers and the rest inf, then put your commander infront of your army so when the enemy gets close they will attack him, so move him away and all of the enemy units will follow him, so you can wakl him around passing your archers, lettting them destory the enemy easy.
the advantage of templars is not only in their fighting skils. The battle is influenced by many thigs such as morale and stamina. If your army has low stamina (no rest) the yare tired so they fight worse than fresh. That may explain your problem. You must really thing about the warfare, not just buy the most expensive units and send them to crush peasants. Even army of 9 templar squads may be defeated by peasant army if templars had no food and rest for long time. However the probability of having low morale templars (or feudal knights and all other "elite units" is very low as they have morale bonus.

also why do i have to pay the for recurtment cost to repair a unit even when their only missing 1 man.spo why do you do that? It is senseless to spend 2000 for 1 templar, so wait untill you have at least 5 missing. Also 1 men missing from squad doesn't affect it's strength

i think the battles are too quick, and needs more balancing, expensive units are only a tiny bit better than the cheap units.

but i do like the campain map though with the polictcal view, the kingdom advantages, kingdom power, and all the villages and churchs in the province.

hopefully the next game could at least bring battles to MTW standard, which is very dam good even today.there is one problem: battles are here to be quick, while the main stress lies in diplomacy and kingdom (diplomatical and economical) management. You play as the KING. King didn't bother himself by EVERY battle. Battles here are made to be fun, but quick to leave you some time to diplomacy.
Yes the AI shuold be smarter, but there are even worse AI's so IMO it's not so bad.
True is that archers are a bit too strong, but sometimes you may be surprised. 5 times Ai proved to be silly and in sixth battle I used just the same tactic and what :eek: suddently his cavalry attacked my marshal from unexpected side and what? he has no time to retreat, he's dead :eek: AI is not always so dumb :wink:

[the knightly sword]

well dude . no unit can go into battle unsupported . one single templar unit cant fend of 3-4 swordsmen all alone . they will need some fellow templar squads beside them . just take the feudal knight for example - they will die if they dont have infarty so they dont get encircled by squads of peasants and eventually die.



i know there is not enough time for tactics . but there is room sisscor-paper-rock tactics -both effective and fast .you only need to remeber which unit is most effective against the other one.

[batulimaboy]

well dude . no unit can go into battle unsupported . one single templar unit cant fend of 3-4 swordsmen all alone . they will need some fellow templar squads beside them . just take the feudal knight for example - they will die if they dont have infarty so the dont get encircled by squads of peasants and eventually die.



i know there is not enough time for tactics . but there is room sisscor-paper-rock tactics -both effective and fast .you only need to remeber which unit is most effective against the other one.

Strongly agree.
Templar (and other sword squad) need the infrantry's support. Otherwise they can't fight better and easily get killed.
That's why I am so like KOH. We need Strategy...

[theoverlord3]

well my unit had full stamina and my army had 5+ more moral than the enemy.


whats the best formation for inf, in the turtoural they said sqaur, i think thats b*****ks having a sqaure means that more of the enemy if in line formation can attack you.



btw what do you mean supported by inf, i sent just 1 tempar unit agasint his swords men, all other untis were engayed, and i was winning.


shall i just stick to swordsmen? :confused:

[HappyAdolf]

sword infantry is best in square, but HEAVY infantry also is good in, how do ya say in English? The German word is Keil-Formation^^

[theoverlord3]

its very anoying, when my templars are dieing soooo easy to peasents and even pike men. this is happening all the time, its sooo ********* i send 1 unit of templar or swordsmen to attack peasents or pike and lose sooo many men really quickly, arghh dam it

could some one please post every single tip or hints there are for battles??

is making the units close formation any good???

[OddjobXL]

While I think Overlord could be a bit more diplomatic about things I do tend to agree that KoH's battle system isn't very good compared to Medieval: Total War. Think about knights vs. peasants. First off, a charging knight is about a half-ton of metal and flesh, thundering along at 30-40 MPH or so, with a very pointy and long lance, most often, just ripping through anything that happens to get in front of it. Unless you've got a longer spear or pike, nerves of steel and lots of buddies around with similiar impliments - odds are you aren't even going to stick around to see what happens when the knights splat into you.

One knight could, unless he was ambushed, probably take out dozens of peasants. Most of 'em would run but anything that stuck around would really face a challenge getting in close enough to cause the knight any harm before he galloped off again. Well trained, armored, and decently equipped infantrymen could probably trap a knight if there were a few of them around and they could slow the charger or dismount the rider but all it would take would be for a couple other knights to be around to make that a very risky proposition.

The answer to the knight is the crossbow or the yew longbow and the pike. Ambushes in woods, fords, or urban areas could work too because if the knight can't charge it's easier to resist and mob him. I think Overlord's frustation with the ineffectiveness of knights and other "powerful" units is reasonable.

That said, I am managing to make the best of battles myself. Can't say I really look forward to them like I do with M:TW's battles but until I trust my marshals enough I feel like I have to manage them personally. It's a very, very, good thing the rest of KoH is so much fun. Which, so far, it is.

I've heard other folks say it but, man, it would be cool to get the designers of M:TW, Crusader Kings and KoH together and figure out how to fix all the best elements of each into a playable, fun, game. I think the KoH team's got fun figured out: the feel of diplomacy and NPC personalities is great, I'm actually enjoying the RTS movement of armies, and the way the assignment of court positions interacts with Kingly traits to form a theme for a given court works fabulously. I also like the "unrealistic" random assignment of terrain, resources and ruler traits - creates alot of replay possibility. CK's got the roleplaying (event engine and noble traits) vassal-leige politics, and dynastic stuff nailed down. And ain't nobody done better than M:TW's tactical battles, period. Too bad the strategic game was an utter dog.

[Illuminatus!]

its very anoying, when my templars are dieing soooo easy to peasents and even pike men. this is happening all the time, its sooo ********* i send 1 unit of templar or swordsmen to attack peasents or pike and lose sooo many men really quickly, arghh dam it

Why would you send just one unit? How many units do you usually send each marshal with (i.e. 7-9 units mixed swordsmen/templars, etc.)?

could some one please post every single tip or hints there are for battles??

Use the "SEARCH" function (upper right portion of screen). There's at least one dedicated thread in English.

is making the units close formation any good???

Definitely. Going through the tutorial section on combat again may help.

First off, a charging knight is about a half-ton of metal and flesh, thundering along at 30-40 MPH

40 mph? Unlikely. The type of horse (almost a draft horse) used isn't going to be able to go anywhere near 40 mph unbarded, unsaddled, and without a rider. Add on the knight, his armor, his lance, and the barding, and you're probably going 20-something mph.

I think Overlord's frustation with the ineffectiveness of knights and other "powerful" units is reasonable.

I'm not sure where you and he are coming from on this one...I have almost NO strategy at all with knights vs. peasants (line em up and charge) and I never suffer more than a few casualties each battle. The first slaughtered peasant unit really kills enemy morale and usually sends them fleeing...

[OddjobXL]

"The top speed of a of a Horse is about 45 Mph (70 Kph)"
http://www.irishhorsesociety.com/horsefacts.htm

"horse can sustain a racing gallop of nearly 70 km/hr" (45 mph)
http://www2.truman.edu/~capter/jins343/week2-3.pdf
This paper is really great. Check out pg. 7 for info on horse locomotion vs. other animals

history of the Thoroughbred breed: http://www.imh.org/imh/bw/tbred.html#hist

Iowa American Quarter Horse Racing Association claims, "the American Quarter Horse rockets from starting gate to finish line at speeds up to 55 mph."
http://www.iqhra.com/

ESPN article claims "American Quarter Horses have been clocked at nearly 50 m.p.h. as they cross the finish line."
http://espn.go.com/horse/000420AQHASpecial.html

I know quarter horses are not technically thoroughbreds, but the horses could enter a quarter horse in the race if you had a problem with it. And those numbers are with a rider.

What I didn't have so much luck finding were explicit references to medieval warhorses. I suspect the issues of rider, armor and barding would be more in the realm of inertia and not top speed. Once you get going, you're going. Now stopping, that'd be something else entirely.

Knights would charge with lances. That was pretty much it. Morning stars, axes, swords, picks - that was for when you got tangled up in melee and couldn't break free for another charge. Sort of like going in with cannons when you get too close to effectively use missiles in a dogfight. That's not the ideal situation but it's good to be prepared.

Anyhow, given this rarified crowd I'd be interested to see what more specific references we could find.

As I play more I tend to dislike the combat less. It's not as cinematic or exciting as M:TW but it's not really all that bad. Soldiers tend to be a bit squishier but it largely works out. Kinda miss the custom formations and the 3-D terrain but I'll get over it. And once you know how to use tougher units and give them proper support they do decently enough.

[Angryminer]

1. There is 3D-Terrain. Use it's advantages.
2. Knights have a desasterous charge. My Feudal knights once squashed a squad of 15 hobilars in one single blow because of their charge-bonus.
3. General tipp: The KoH battles are better than they look like. If you use all the strategies that work out in reality you will see that they work in KoH, even though there may no signs saying "Flanking bonus applies!" or "This squad has lower morale because it saw that it's rear is currently not protected by friendly forces" these mechanics still aply.
I tend to favor KoH battles over R:TW. They are less cinematic, the overview is by far better and the battles look much better (no floating soldiers, no ugly polygons, no soldiers that fly 50 meters after being hit by a sword, etc.).

Angryminer

[Illuminatus!]

"The top speed of a of a Horse is about 45 Mph (70 Kph)"
http://www.irishhorsesociety.com/horsefacts.htm

"horse can sustain a racing gallop of nearly 70 km/hr" (45 mph)
http://www2.truman.edu/~capter/jins343/week2-3.pdf
This paper is really great. Check out pg. 7 for info on horse locomotion vs. other animals...

...I know quarter horses are not technically thoroughbreds, but the horses could enter a quarter horse in the race if you had a problem with it. And those numbers are with a rider.

What I didn't have so much luck finding were explicit references to medieval warhorses. I suspect the issues of rider, armor and barding would be more in the realm of inertia and not top speed. Once you get going, you're going. Now stopping, that'd be something else entirely.

I am quite well aware of the top speed of racing horses, which were bred only within the last couple hundred years, ridden by jockeys explicitly chosen for their small size, and equiped with nothing more than a saddle blanket and an English saddle. But as you pointed out below, they are NOT warhorses. For more explicit information on warhorses, barding, speed, and weight limits, you might want to consult some 2nd edition AD&D guides (Arms and Equipment Guide has a chapter on it).

[OddjobXL]

I am quite well aware of the top speed of racing horses, which were bred only within the last couple hundred years, ridden by jockeys explicitly chosen for their small size, and equiped with nothing more than a saddle blanket and an English saddle. But as you pointed out below, they are NOT warhorses. For more explicit information on warhorses, barding, speed, and weight limits, you might want to consult some 2nd edition AD&D guides (Arms and Equipment Guide has a chapter on it).

As fond as I am of turning to roleplaying games as credible information sources I'm thinking there might be something out there with citations. I'll look around and see what I can find.

Edit: Now this is really bugging me. Can't find any specifics. I've a pretty good medieval shelf and nothing that directly addresses this. And, sigh, I even did turn to some more reliable source material from RPGs. Ars Magica (the Mythic Europe and Ordo Nobilis supplements in particular) and Vampire: Dark Ages (Ashen Knights and Spoils of War). Nada. So...I ordered a book on medieval warhorses. *chuckle*

Anyhow, back to the main topic. I think I'm going to take back my complaints for now. The more I play the more I appreciate that the tactical engine does a pretty servicable job (even if the AI could use some sharpening up). I really do like the feel of the maps but I do kinda wish all the peasants and bystanders would run away and hide or something when there's fighting nearby. These guys have incredible nerve. Better than most soldiers out there that's for sure....

[theoverlord3]

i felt that MTWs battlers were extremly fun, well execpt for when the enemy would straight away go for the nearest hill and stay there and when you get into a good postion they leg it to the next hill. but the overal feel was really good.battles where all about formation, if you were in formation or it ****ed you die and there is almost nothing you can do. in rome total war is easy to move units quickly around the battle feild, so i makes battle formations less important which is a shame.

i dont really like the battles for this game, i most the time i dont know why i`m losing so many men, even though me best units 'templars' die very quickly aganst poor units. i would expect a few peasents to attack and be killed easily then for the rest of the sqad to leg it as there is no chance the can perice a tempars knights armour with spades and small daggers.

but overal i blame the small unit sizes if you had sqads of 200 men losing 30 does`nt really matter, but in this game losing 20 men for sqads of 40 can be a big blow, escically when you have to pay 2000gold to repair them even if only 1 man is lost.

overal the game has good aspects and bad ones, which is a shame, when your making a game you have to make your game BEtter bigger or bring something amazing to the garenra. this game brings new great ideas but, its taking a BIG step backwords with the battle system. if the game was released before mtw it might of been aceptable, but after its apporling.

i feel disapointed when playing battles.

I`m really hoping the next knights of honor if they do make it WILL make better battles to at least MTW standards, as right now i cant stand them.

the blancing needs to be sorted out for the units or at least expained at bit for, like message coming out of unitss saying "i feel safe near my friends", or "i feel scared as i`m alone on unsafe ground"

i`m gonna try to give the game some more time, before i walk away from it.

theoverlord3

-btw sorry about any spelling mistakes and remeber before you flame me, i still like this game (well bits of it)
thanks for reading my post hopefully you could post a good helpful message, to help me love this game. lol bye

[Elvain]

maybe try various mods.

Angryminer's Glory of God makes squads more numerous
in my Holy Rome I improved defense of units like Templars and Normans(Normans had defense 0 :eek: with chainmail and norman shield) and I will consider extension of soldiers-per-squad numbers.

Also keep in mind that this game is not like MTW mainly about battles. It is meant to be somewhere between EU and MTW: mostly diplomacy, but if you want(or need) to lead a battle you can and it is still fun.
But I must agree with one thing: Templars are overestimated in unit's descriptions

[Angryminer]

When talking about GoG and battles:
I did only minor work on the battles in GoG-1.5. The new version should make some progress here.

Angryminer

[lt1956]

When is the new version coming out, I am playing your other older version and its great. Still though the game is easy wierd, eh?

Lt

[Illuminatus!]

i dont really like the battles for this game, i most the time i dont know why i`m losing so many men, even though me best units 'templars' die very quickly aganst poor units.

I have no idea why you're losing so many men that way either. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you're playing KoH like MTW (something KoH is not, as you pointed out). Do you typically give your marshals the "heal" skill (to level 3?)? The sword unit skill? Tactics?

you have to pay 2000gold to repair them even if only 1 man is lost.

As Elvain said, if you can't afford to spend 2000 gold to reman the unit, then wait until you've lost 5 or more - the 2000 gold (for Teutonic Knights, anyway) recruitment cost is flat (like all other units) - whether you've lost 19 men or just 1, the 2000 gold is the amount required.

[theoverlord3]

well how do you play battles? :confused:

oh 'tighen ranks' just makes me lose men faster. :bash: :angry:

hopefully 'losening ranks' should give enough move for the templars to swing their swords. :scratch:

the bounus i go for are,
imporved recover rate :go:
improved gen attack :go:
imporve stamina :go:
imporved moral :go:

btw does morla effect attack??

[Elvain]

well how do you play battles? :confused: Each battle is diferent, but generaly:
When I see archers, I send cavalry against them. Against cavalry I send polearm units if possible and infantry against polearm and archers. When there is a danger that archers will shoot on my men, I order them to wide the formation so enemy archers are less effective, and when they are about to engage melee, formation goes wide. I use charge as much as possible. What I like most is to charge with cavalryinto infantry melee to break enemy troops morale and improve my.
And the rest is dependent on each battle.

oh 'tighen ranks' just makes me lose men faster. :bash: :angry: depends: when archers shoot on tighten formation, sure they are more successfull. But in melee your men are stronger - their morale is more stable and they are little more effective (as 2 of your men can hit one enemy) Of course that this can turn against you. If you have peasants with no defense against cataphracts with chance to kill over 200% be sure that it is deadly(it's foolish to send peasants against cataphracts).
As I repeat again and again. YOu must THINK during bettle. Not make one formation and send your men to kill somebody. When I see archers, I make my formations wide. And when they are close enough, after I charge, I quickly order them to tighten the formation :go:
btw does morla effect attack??if you mean morale, it has effect on soldiers behaviour. When they have low morale they are likely to keep retreating so they don't follow your orders. For this I would recomend to camp(you can do it also in battle)

PS: are you sure there is stamina bonus in KoH?