Counterespionage

[Jabba]

I recently got this game and am just beginning to learn the correct strategies.

It is very hard for me to believe that there is any point to hiring any other knights apart from merchants and marshals (admittedly I have not experimented much with clerics and spies). Even my most inefficient merchants generate more than 20 gold a turn, and unlike all the other knights they cost no upkeep. The money is always useful. If I have too much gold then I can simply spend it on more and bigger armies to conquer my enemies! This seems like a no brainer.

My main question concerns spies. I thought it was probably prudent at least to have one spy performing counter-espionage. But is it really worth it? The worst an enemy spy has ever done to me is steal about 900 gold. That's less then the initial cost of hiring a counter-spy, let alone the 10 gold a turn upkeep. Not to mention the opportunity cost my spy imposes by taking up a slot that could be occupied by another merchant. What's more, my counterspy isn't even very good at catching enemy spies!

What do other players feel? If you don't protect your court against enemy spies, what's the worst that can happen? Is it worth investing in counter-espionage?

I'm hoping the answer is yes. My main disappointment with this game is the lack of incentive to vary your selection of knights.

[Elvain]

So if you think he's not worth it, don't hire him :go:

and play and play and once you'll see...
it's fan to see all your marshalls rebeling against you right after your king has dies quite unexpected with no heir "in a battle" while he was peacefully trading with your most faithfull ally... and furthermore your best fortified military base, castle of Constantinople(say) handed over keys to your mutual enemy when the cleric who was governing it was an enemy spy

these are just examples what enemy spies can cause you :wink:

note: everything you can do to your enemies, they can do to you as well :dwink:
But I'm not sure but sometimes even a spy on a mission can do counter-espionage

[Illuminatus!]

The bigger you are, the more you have to lose, and the more you need clerics and at least one high level spy to catch enemy spies.

[Jabba]

Thanks guys! Glad to know I didn't waste my money.

I take it from Illuminatus's post that it may be worth waiting until you've built your kingdom up a bit before investing in a counter-spy?

[Elvain]

Yes, you understand it perfectly :wink:

but to be honest, it's good to train one of your knights in espionage since the beggining (if you have larger kingdom that can afford it) in spy actions against other kingdoms...

f.i. if you pause the game at the very beggining and assign one of your princes as spy and send him to some foreign court(some that has no prince to be married) there would be a chance that he might become a foreign king in the second generation, even before claiming his father's throne...
you will save books in this way...

[maladominus]

I recently got this game and am just beginning to learn the correct strategies.

It is very hard for me to believe that there is any point to hiring any other knights apart from merchants and marshals (admittedly I have not experimented much with clerics and spies). Even my most inefficient merchants generate more than 20 gold a turn, and unlike all the other knights they cost no upkeep. The money is always useful. If I have too much gold then I can simply spend it on more and bigger armies to conquer my enemies! This seems like a no brainer.

My main question concerns spies. I thought it was probably prudent at least to have one spy performing counter-espionage. But is it really worth it? The worst an enemy spy has ever done to me is steal about 900 gold.

Ummm, the Enemy Spies can do far more damage to you than stealing 900 gold. They can also spead Heresy and convert your provinces into Paganism. PAGANISM! If you are Catholic nation, do you have any idea how much it costs to convert back your province from Paganism to Catholicism? It costs maybe over 10,000 gold (for a large city)!! Counter-spies are worth it, IMHO. But they are only worth it if your King has some espionage talent (e.g. 2 or 3 stars in Espionage).... that is the only way your counter-spies will catch enemy spies BEFORE they can do any damage.

To me, these are the most important Knights:

#1) Marshals, you always need a couple of marshals.

#2) Merchants, you always need gold

#3) Clerics, you need BOOKS!

#4) Spies/Counter-Spies


Builders and Landlords are worthless. They only increase your building efficiency by a small amount. And once all your cities have big Granaries, who needs them?

[Da Bomb]

Marshals are probably what I would consider the most important to not be spies. Spies would be next because they are constantly going for your king. But when a supermarshal of yours with the best possible units you can get with maybe a few stars and a bunch of talents becomes a rebel and starts killing you it can really hurt. But then again, if your spy kills your young, heirless king, you might end up losing many provinces to local nobility. It's a tradeoff though, but losing a province to paganism isn't something that bad. Just fix it up and have a marshal their for the sprouting rebels.

[junobeach]

I learned the hard way how important counter-spies are. ALL my 5 star generals (I had five of them) rebelled due to a spy in my house. Had to run around my entire empire putting out fires. Then I was worried about hiring any new marshalls in case they were spies too. What a nightmare. From now on I always make my second heir a spy.

[tybalt]

I usually use his majesty the king himself to do the counterespionage… and the prince first always gets his five-star spy-training before he inherits the throne. Late in the game, when your kingdom is great, every new knight you hire is a spy. You can start a real spy-selling business: hire merchant…let him work a bit…. he gets imprisoned for being a spy…. sell him back to his country… :rolleyes:

[maladominus]

I take it from Illuminatus's post that it may be worth waiting until you've built your kingdom up a bit before investing in a counter-spy?

Yes and no.

In general..... I do NOT waste money on counter-spies when the game has just started. Chances are that very few AI kingdoms can even afford to hire spies yet.

BUT later in the game.... when all AI kingdoms have large income, it is 100% guaranteed that several of them are engaging in espionage all the time. By this time, you better have counter-spies ready to guard your court..... or you are in big trouble.