Nicaea morale penalty???

[Despot Dobrotitza]

I am playing as Nicaea and I noticed that all my marshals start with ridiculously low morale. I need to plunder some farms to raise it before I can fight even simple rebels with peasant armies. How come? I am the church of Constantinople and gain subordinate churches as time goes by and yet I get orthodox morale penalty. I don't understand. Unless the penalty is due to something else or I need to take the city before I lose the penalty.
If anyone has an idea, please tell me.

[Angryminer]

Yes, the center of the orthodox church suffers the orthodox-dependent-penalty. But I can't say why.
But it is usually a good idea to get your hands on the fanatic-skill. That will help you to make up for the difference. Especially fighting muslims without the fanatics-skill is hard.

Angryminer

[JustinianII]

Yeah I independently discovered that as well. If you are an Orthodox kingdom, the fanatic skill is worth its weight in gold. At skill level 3 you get +6 morale against most enemies!!

[maladominus]

That's weird.

I played Bulgaria once, and then I created a Patriarch. With my independent Patriarch, my (orthodox) morale penalty disappeared.

So IF an Independent Orthodox can "remove" the penalty by getting its own Patriarch, why would the Byzantines keep the morale penalty.... since they already have THE original Patriarch??

It's confusing.

[Despot Dobrotitza]

That exactly was my train of thought. Makes no sense to me. Maybe it disappears with the restoration of Byzantia or something but it still makes no sense. Especially since Byzantine armies were known for their morale.
I also played Bulgaria and had my patriarch and no morale problem. In fact, it wasn't as much of a problem in the beginning of the game as it is with the Nicaeans. I take over a province, march my marshal somewhere else, get rebels, appoint a marshal and send him against a peasant army with a whole bunch of roman infantry and archers and he dies.... and it became even more annoying when the emperor died and my only experienced marshal became emperor and had to retire when he got old.

Bottom line is... it makes no sense to me to have the church of Constantinople suffer from the penalty it imposes on others.

[FranzJosef]

I agree, it seems a bit ridiculous.

[Despot Dobrotitza]

And in general why is the penalty put in the game at all? I don't understand what it's supposed to symbolyze. Irthodox nations are at an obvious disadvantage and it just makes them less fun to play. I like being able to declare an independent church cuz that was a major part of the orthodox coutries' hostory but maybe there should have been a different penalty for being subordinate to Constantinople.

[Angryminer]

I spend a thought on it and now I modified my testing version of GoG to the following:
Orthodox independent:
-10% income bonus - needed to keep your own church alive
30% books bonus
0% piety bonus
0 morale bonus

Orthodox dependent:
0% income bonus, however, you pay 10% to the kingdom you are subordinated to
0% books bonus
30% piety bonus
0 morale bonus

Any suggestions?

Angryminer

[Kris_stz]

Is there anyway of using the pope?I mean if you play with papacy can you use the pope?

[Angryminer]

Read this (http://www.knights-of-honor.net/english/gameinfo/featured_story/knights_2.php) to learn more about clerics, the pope and papacy.

Angryminer

[Kris_stz]

I understand.Thanks man.You'd might wanna hel Jabajo over at his forum.He's new to the game and could realy use some help.Xuca is hlping him but he'll need some help.Jabajo is a qestion volcano.

[Despot Dobrotitza]

Angryminer, your changes seem much more reasonable. I don't see how the subordinated church would really affect the army's morale. You could somehow justify it but it's a stretch. The book bonus seems like a good idea. The only other thing I could think of that you can add is something like a kingdom reputation bonus for independent churches. I am not sure how exactly that would work with the game mechanics but it would be exactgly opposite to being excommunicated only among orthodox kingdoms. From what I know, that was the main reason orthodox countries wanted independent churches - more prestige for their institutions and easier diplomacy.

[Kris_stz]

You can claim an indipendent church?I didn't knew of that before!BUt to do that your church must be under the concil of the church of Konstantinopol right?Which kingdoms can claim indipendence!

[Despot Dobrotitza]

Any orthodox church can do it if they have a 5 star cleric to become a patriarch. Of course, Nicaea and Byzantium can't cuz they own the church of Constantinople. They don't have to be in any council cuz they then have their own patriarch after declaring independence and they don't get money from Constantinople anymore but also the ridiculous and pointless morale penalty disappears.

[Jabajo]

:swordfighting: