View Full Version : Teutonic Knights as nation?
I have seen the unit for Teutonic champions, and was just curious if the Teutonic Knights will be playable as a "soveriegn entity" in the area of old Prussia, Pomerania, Poland, Lithuania etc.? Or will this solely be a germanic unit within the HRE? I'm hoping that consideration will be given to this rather important force within the history of medieval eastern europe. Will the battle of Grunwald be able to take place?
Frank Fay
03-02-2004, 16:21
There will be a Teutonic Order as a playable Kingdom. But not in all three entry periods.
hulkster225
03-02-2004, 20:01
Do you know anything about the Teutonic Knight unit? Are they going to be foot soldiers or on horseback? I've only ever seen them in Age of Empires 2 and in that they were very powerful, but on foot and were very slow.
Frank Fay
03-02-2004, 20:15
In KoH they are also on foot but they are called Teutonic Champion.
Why are they called 'Champion'? I've never heard of teutonic knights being called that. Sounds more of the french/english title.
Angryminer
03-02-2004, 21:27
Because Teutonic Champions are not knights.
[ I may remind you that in this game the name knight has a very special and important meaning. ]
Angryminer
BG ROCKS!
03-02-2004, 21:36
yeah angryminers right
Because Teutonic Champions are not knights.
??
Well let's see what our friend internet tells us.
Here (http://www.chivalricorders.org/vatican/teutonic.htm) ,here (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14541b.htm) and here (http://the-orb.net/encyclop/religion/monastic/opsahl2.html) . No mention of 'teutonic champions'. 'Knights' only. And after all it was called The Military Order of the Teutonic Knights .
Now about the 'Champion'.
champion
adj 1: clearly superior or having the attributes of a winner; "a
champion at teaching"
2: holding first place in a contest; "a champion show dog"; "a
prizewinning wine" [syn: prizewinning]
n 1: someone who has won first place in a competition [syn: champ,
title-holder]
2: someone who fights for a cause [syn: fighter, hero, paladin]
3: a person who backs a politician or a team etc.; "all their
supporters came out for the game"; "they are friends of
the library" [syn: supporter, protagonist, admirer,
booster, friend]
v : protect or fight for as a champion [syn: defend]
So let's try the definition that champion= someone who fights for a cause. In that case you have to specify what he's the champion of (king, queen, heart, etc.) So what were teutonic knights champions of ? Faith? I really doubt it. As I previously stated I've never heard them being called champions of anything.
What you need to realize is this game ISN'T going to be a history lesson. It's has to be fun.
AND...realize that this is a EUROPEAN game maker and their translation of champion may be different. I think you may need to be a bit less literal with the terminology.
As it was said before, knights will be playing a large role in KOH and I think they just don't want anyone mixing the terms.
Why don't we just call them Teutonic Knights and forget the champion definition :rolleyes:
This will sorta end this discussion :)
btw, i was wondering about the champion definition i.e.
Vytis: So let's try the definition that champion= someone who fights for a cause. In that case you have to specify what he's the champion of (king, queen, heart, etc.) So what were teutonic knights champions of ? Faith? I really doubt it. As I previously stated I've never heard them being called champions of anything.
If one uses the word Champion about the Teutonic Knights then, as i understand the definition, it would be the correct word to use if Teutonic Knights were defending f.ex. the german border from an invasion! so in this case they would be called:Teutonic champions of Germany - correct ?
...so in this case they would be called:Teutonic champions of Germany ... You're absolutely right Henrik. We certainly could call them that way.
But they were not called that in real life. At least I'm not aware of it.
I think you may need to be a bit less literal with the terminology.Well, we don't have french cataphracts or english janissaries in the game. So terminology has some use. And there is a difference between a 'champion' and a 'knight'. Also I don't really think that translation has much to do with it. In english there is a 'teutonic knight', in german - 'teuton ritter' (knight), in russian - 'teutonskiy rytsar' (knight), in lithuanian - 'teutonu riteris' (knight).
It's not a big deal really. It's just that the game is not out yet and there's not much to talk about. So I figured to go pick on devs :)
Angryminer
04-02-2004, 12:03
In this game a knight can be a marshall, a spy or governor of a realm. But a Teutonic Champion can't be a spy, nor a marshall nor a governor.
I think they renamed Teuronic Knights to Teuronic Champions to make clear that Teutonic Champions are no marshalls, spies or governors.
Is it clear now?
Angryminer
[ Of course, we can rename them to Teutonic Knights and confuse a lot of people, if this is what you want... ]
The same problem you have with Templars. They're not "Templars" in correct way, but "Templar knights" or "knights of the Temple of Jerusalem".
But In THIS game as Angryminer said word KNIGHT has very concrete meaning, for governors, marshalls and spies, so Teutonic and Templar knights should be renamed. Knights of the temple of Jerusalem are usually shortened into Templars, so, they're called Templars, but we don't have andy one-word expression for Teutonic knights (Teutonics? maybe), so "knight" had to be removed, so they called them "champions" instead, because it's the nearest expression, I guess.
Clear?
Frank Fay
04-02-2004, 13:55
Champions are also used as an expression for VERY elite units, which Teutonic Champions are. If I would be a normal Footman and got in a melee with them, I would ruuuuuuuuuuuuun :cool:
Thanks for the reply! This game just shot up to the top of my "most anticipated" list.
Originally posted by Frank Fay
Champions are also used as an expression for VERY elite units, which Teutonic Champions are. If I would be a normal Footman and got in a melee with them, I would ruuuuuuuuuuuuun :cool:
:eek: and hwo was running away in Zalgiris battle in 1410 July 15 :rolleyes: :) :D :cheers:
The Lithuanian/Polish victory weakened the Knights to such an extent that they eventually became inconsequential in European affairs.:bday: :cheers:
and there were no "Teutonic Champions" in Medieval Europe...:rolleyes: So I agree with Henrik and Vytis here.
One question Mr. Frank Fay: any special units for Lithuania:rolleyes: .
@peace
well, did there excist some knights, or what have ya, in Lithuania during the midieval period which were special in some way in terms of fighting skills and such ? - coz if the answer is no, then i wouldn't count on it if i was you :(
Originally posted by Siautas
and there were no "Teutonic Champions" in Medieval Europe...:rolleyes: So I agree with Henrik and Vytis here. Peace...
but...
Damn. No teutonic champions, of course. Of course you did great victory over Teutonic order. But Henrik told true. If you don't have any very special unit, you won't have any in the game.
And back to champions. Have you red the discussion above? I think there IS an explanation why to say YES to Teutonic CHAMPIONS and NO to Teutonic KNIGHTS in KoH.
And teutonic order WAS important entity in history of Baltic lands, Poland and Lithuania. You proved it saying that battle of Grunwald(I know it that way, but it's the same like Zalgiris, july 15, 1410) was that important for your history when it weakened teutonic order.
It's good that they're individual nation in the game.
No one argues about the neccessity of inclusion of TO in the game. I'm glad they're gonna be there. The argument is about the name. Teutonic Knights vs. teutonic Champions.
So far the only argument against the 'knights' is that supposedly it would "confuse a lot of people" [because there's also knight characters which are not neccessarily teutonic]. That's a pretty weak argument :) It's like implying that other players are mentally inferior or simply 'special' so they won't see the difference. It's silly.
Unless the name 'teutonic knights' somehow messes up the code, I really don't see a good reason for using historically and logically inaccurate 'teutonic champion'.
:king:
@Vytis, sorry for another silly note. When your only argument against anything is that it's silly because it's silly, your argument is very silly to me...:D The rest is not for you...
Frank, I guess that somebody here really hate the word "champion" maybe because he has some american asociation with it and is not able to understand importance and genuinity of word and title knight , so we shall call members of teutonic order simply Teutons or Teutonics. Or another suggestion. What about renaming whole game to Champions of honor, becouse sbdy don't wanna have teutonic champions and it's better to not use same word for two diferent units.;)
PS: Templars are also not historicaly accurate. You shall use Knights of the Temple of Jerusalem. YEEEE!!!! ofcourse. I wanna units called accuratly: "Knights of the Ttemple of Jerusalem" :hello: :hello:
vBulletin v3.5.4, Copyright ©2000-2007, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.