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View Full Version : Spies-out of balance & Overpowered?


Hell Knight
24-08-2005, 10:39
Hello,

Im just curious if all of you think the espionage part of this game is out of balanced, overpowered and ridiculously easy? Ok let me tell you how I really feel! :lol:

If you are developing a Marshall, you have to hire an army and then you have to actually fight battles to get better.

If you are cleric you have to train the cleric to be any good and use up about 4,000 books. To use the adopt skill it uses 1,000 books and the convert skill uses 14K+ and 1,000 piety.

If you are developing a Spy, for a mere 4,000 books you can just about infiltrate any kingdom and be successful on just about any mission you send him on. I've only sent out level 4 spys and sometimes the first try they fail but they always keep thier identity hidden for another try which usually works the second time. In order to do this all it costs you is time to build up for another try.

It seems to me that spy atttempts should cost books and or cash especially for the many options you have to wreak absolute chaos in another kingdom for what really amounts to a disposable character especially middle to late in the game when you have lots of cash and books being written.

I know this my wish list but I think a spy should have to be double trained in order to keep his cover. In other words he should not only have to be trained as a spy but he should have to be trained up as a cleric, or a merchant, or landlord, etc. and the only default category would be a marshal.

In addition, I think it is very unrealistic to have a foreigner be accepted into a foreign court and be able to ascend to a top position in that society, especially when nationality and family loyalty was so important? It seems to me that if your spy ever did get a position like that it should be VERY rare. Because right now its ajoke you can infiltrate any kingdom at any time. There should be a minimum of like 5 to 10 years in game time before you can use a spy.

Finally, I think a spy shouldn't even be used to get to a top position but rather you would have to use his skills to "turn" a member of the foreign court and have that person be your spy. Then in order to get results from that spy you have to pay large amounts of money and train him as well. Only then should you be able to get some of the rather INSANE benefits of a spy that you can easily get now.

Well thats my two cents. What do you think is spying to easy?

Hellknight

Arions
24-08-2005, 15:26
I`m ready to agree, that spies are more powerfl, than they should be.

I had a situation, when my first hard-earned 5000 gold coins were stolen by "my" merchant, and I didn`t even get to know, which kingdom did it. Then my kingdom was instantly attacked by a rival force :eek: and I had absolutly no money to build up peasants (at least).
So the game ended up very fast for me :angel: .

Elvain
24-08-2005, 18:01
IN some cases I agree, in some not.
I don't think spies are overpowered:
befeore your spy infiltrates, it takes you lot of time(in my games, I wait mostly about 10-20 minutes for spy to be infiltrated-in my personal timing it means 3-7years)
also the spy is rarely hired in profession I'd like him to be

Spy is not that cheap, I think he(even in the vanilla game) more than clerics or other professions.

Althuogh I agree that some small(!!) gold or books cost would be nice idea.
If you are developing a Spy, for a mere 4,000 books you can just about infiltrate any kingdom and be successful on just about any mission you send him on. I've only sent out level 4 spys and sometimes the first try they fail but they always keep thier identity hidden for another try which usually works the second time. In order to do this all it costs you is time to build up for another try.My spies succeed mostly on 4th attempt, if sooner, it is in case of extremely experienced spies who spied in at least 4 kingdoms(and should have some 8 or more stars)

Also doubble training works.. spies get experiences from the profession they are hired as. So when your spy is hired as marshall for second time, he's better, but if he was once cleric, once marshall and then is hired as merchant, he's like a begginer...

In addition, I think it is very unrealistic to have a foreigner be accepted into a foreign court and be able to ascend to a top position in that society, especially when nationality and family loyalty was so important? It seems to me that if your spy ever did get a position like that it should be VERY rare. Because right now its ajoke you can infiltrate any kingdom at any time. There should be a minimum of like 5 to 10 years in game time before you can use a spy.I disagree with this as it is possible. In medieval kingdoms(and also in KoH) kings used local nobility so they COULD NEVER know who is loyal to some other kingdom or not!
It takes some time for spy to infiltrate succesfully so 5-10 years limit more-or-less works.

junobeach
24-08-2005, 19:31
My success rate for spies is quite low. I only send out 5 star spies but either I'm picking the wrong countries or I'm unlucky but they seem to get caught a lot of the time. And it costs a FORTUNE to get him back.
I like the double training idea though. My spies are hired as Marshals (of course) 90% of the time. It would be cool if you could train him as a Cleric spy and that's what he would be hired as. It just might take longer. Probably more realistic too.

Kris_stz
25-08-2005, 16:44
I agree.The espionage is far too easy?How can someone kill the king?Hes more than just havily guarded!But it isn't always necessary to ejucate a spy.He gets educated himself after a sucessfull mision.A cleric is good to train only if you are a catholic kingdom.Thats what I think at least.But books are realy needed to adopt the population.And the income of the books is ridiculus!Its let say 15 books.YOU NEED 1000!!!!!

Elvain
25-08-2005, 17:41
Income of bookaWhat? educated cleric is always needed.
1) he writes more books when is educated
2) when converting provinces, his experience plays large role
3) what about orthodox independent churches? they NEED 5level cleric to stay uiindependent!

the income is mostly higher: every church/mosque=1book, 1educated cleric gives you also lot of books. When you're at 30 and more, the income is realy not bad. There was not so many books in middle ages
when a cleric converts a province, he gets experience as well as spy

PS:no, in medieval times kings were not so highly guarded. There was no problem to kill the king...

Angryminer
25-08-2005, 21:26
Even in modern times it is possible to kill the king/president. Franz Ferdinand of Austria-Hungary and JF Kennedy come to my mind here.
(Yes, even though Franz Ferdinand was just the crown-prince.)

Angryminer