View Full Version : Petition against SF patch policy
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Let's found anti-sunflowers club!
why?
The community is annoyed by the policy of Sunflowers Gmbh towards this game. What are the biggest problems that make us doubt about your interest in this game are:
1) Sunflowers is responsible for beta testing (as I found in my manual to Knights of Honor). Beta testing was made so badly that a month after a release it was clear that a patch is necessary immediately and in 30 november 2004, the patch was released.
2) The first patch was meant to be the only official support to Knights of Honor. Sunflowers to support their game whole 3 months and no longer! (release of KoH september 2004, the last planned support 30 november 2004!)
3) publicity of Knights of Honor:
pre- and after- release publicity of KoH was so "perfect" that one of the most often reactions here and on Paradox forums was something like this: "What a great game! How is it possible that I have never heard of it?" or "Thanks you told me about this game. Nowhere I could find that game like this even exist," mostly it was written by people who were looking for a game like this for long time what is really strange.
4) the publisher decided not to publish the game in the biggest gaming market in the world. Let me compare this to imaginary situation that BMW would decide to distribute their cars only in Africa and Asia leaving Europe and USA away
5) 2nd patch policy.(community poll about the 2nd patch (http://forum.sunflowers.de/showthread.php?t=3509) After Sunflowers finaly changed their mind and released the game in North America (we can only ask how was it possible that game wasn't planned to be released there), they finally accepted the possibility of further suport. (Note, customers in North America recieved yet NO support!) in april 2004 a list of changes requested by community was summarized by community members and sent to Sunflowers. Then long nothing happened. Then there was long negotiations between Sunflowers and Black Sea Studios (during time when Black Sea Studios had first holidays after 3 years) and when BSS stated they have clear concept for the 2nd patch the community waits over 2 months for official statement of Sunflowers that has only 2 possibilities: yes - make the patch - or not.
based on those arguments there is deep impression among the community members that Sunflowers do everything not to support this game that is generaly (among players and reviewers) considered as very promissing and ambitious project.
The only way how to make this game live at least a little is to make hard and loud preassure on Sunflowers that always refuses any support or activity.
I would like to ask Sunflowers what is their strategy about Knights of Honor. I think about 3 possible answers (though one seems to be very far from truth)
A) we want to support the game and do our best
B) this project was a mistake. We don't want to support it any longer
C) we have no conception what to do with Knights of Honor
if the answer is A, please start to do something because untill now it seems to be right the oposite.
if the answer is B, please sel the rights to somebody else.
if the answer is C, I hope this will force you to make some.
For me personally answers B and C mean that in future I will never buy any other product of Sunflowers because it means they don't give me no servis (would you buy a car with no oportunity to have servis?) or are absolutely unable to manage responsibly things they make.
These are reasons that led me to foundation of this club
Do you agree with me? let's vote!
then I have one more question, if it's not top secret:
how long did the beta testing last? because bugs that had to be fixed in the first patch were found by gamers during two weeks after release. I wonder who have tested the game. Somebody who have never before played RTS game?
[EDIT]censored by Elvain
I will continue spreading this petition on the web untill Sunflowers gives us clear statement.
After the statement comes I will either stop it and take my words back (delete) or stop it (delete) and boycot all other products of Sunflowers for myself only
Webmaster
26-11-2005, 18:46
hmmm hmmm hmmm
sorry if this causes you problems(I mean You - Webmaster - personaly). I know you can't blame your employer.
But I see no other way how to force your employer to be less ignorant. Over 2 months they are considering if they will say YES or NOT to a patch that is already done by Black Sea Studios...
:wtf: is this?
do whatever they order you to do. Ban me (but before that let me destroy the most popular KoH mod please), close this thread... but it won't make me stop this!
Webmaster
26-11-2005, 19:09
puh, you put me in a minefield and i don't think it is a vise course of action.
i don't know why there is such a delay ... but this won't help towards a possible yes.
maybe i must act on monday to execute things i am told to, but i have to report this coz this board is for the customers and not against SUNFLOWERS.
I know you may be forced to do so...
either clear statement or no Holy Rome mod. This is what I say
I must say that the "theatre" Sunflowers perform is ridiculous. Don't tell me they don't know if they WANT to support this game or DO NOT WANT... or what are they considering now for over 2 months?
Give a greenlight or NOT give a greenlight...
EDIT: I am sorry, I don't want to cause YOU problems... (PS: would it be possible to make the poll anonymous?)
Elvain I'm with you 110%!!!! If they ban you they better ban me as well. If they don't give an answer I'm going to boycott all sunflower products!!!!!! What's the big deal, 2 months to say yes or no!! I mean wtf is going on.!!!!!
:angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :: :angry: :angry: :angry:
Let their cruel rule end, REBELION!!!!!!! All brother to arms!!:knight:
Hey my Brother Elvain!I support you with my rebels.Let us plunder and burn the lands of :angry: :angry: :angry: sunflowers! :angry: :angry: :angry:
The lords will never give us food and wine!We all hate this! :angry: :angry: :angry:
*offtopic: And who said that this forum was dead :biggrin:
topic: I don't think i will join your rebellion... *raises a hand before the mob rushes him with pitchforks and other farm weapons*
Although I will not take the side of Sunflowers either because it does seems unjust of them not do that patch-thing for us.
Hopefully you will not cause havoc in every knock an' granny in this forum :go:
I should have made the poll anonymous...
but I think that voting for isn't "criminal" in this forum. If someone will be banned, it's only me....
I just wanted to do something, something that will make Sunflowers do something... (no I'm not so naive I think this will change something - I just don't want to watch this situation)
and then either I will be banned or Sunflowers will realize that this isn't principally against the company (and even less against our very good Webmaster!!!) but it is against it's stupid policy.
I don't want to spread hostility against Sunflowers, I want to help their partners and maybe it will marginaly help also them (or not)
I remember some old time ago some member blaming Sunflowers. Sad I don't remember the reason, I guess it was lack of support to their games or sth like this...
You got a pure reson then Elvain :smile:
I maybe discard my neutrality now but i think i will vote for, just for the sake of that.
Don't worry Elvain. I don't think they will ban you for this.
You just wanted to speak and express you're mind. Nothing wrong about that, right :wink:
I am sorry that I was little unclear. This thread is here not to cause hostility towards anybody or to harm anybody (the less to harm our kind Webmaster)
I summarized the main ideas into this petition, pleas vote about this petition:
As Webmaster is a speaker of our community towards his employer, Sunflowers Gmbh, I would like to ask him to redirect these words to responsible people in Sunflowers Gmbh.
The community is annoyed by the policy of Sunflowers Gmbh towards this game. What are the biggest problems that make us doubt about your interest in this game are:
1) Sunflowers is responsible for beta testing (as I found in my manual to Knights of Honor). Beta testing was made so badly that a month after a release it was clear that a patch is necessary immediately and in november 30 2004, the patch was released.
2) The first patch was meant to be the only official support to Knights of Honor. Sunflowers to support their game whole 3 months and no longer! (release of KoH september 2004, the last planned support 30 november 2004!)
3) publicity of Knights of Honor:
pre- and after- release publicity of KoH was so "perfect" that one of the most often reactions here and on Paradox forums was something like this: "What a great game! How is it possible that I have never heard of it?" or "Thanks you told me about this game. Nowhere I could find that game like this even exist," mostly it was written by people who were looking for a game like this for long time what is really strange.
4) the publisher decided not to publish the game in the biggest gaming market in the world. Let me compare this to imaginary situation that BMW would decide to distribute their cars only in Africa and Asia leaving Europe and USA away
5) 2nd patch policy.(community poll about the 2nd patch (http://forum.sunflowers.de/showthread.php?t=3509) After Sunflowers finaly changed their mind and released the game in North America (we can only ask how was it possible that game wasn't planned to be released there), they finally accepted the possibility of further suport. (Note, customers in North America recieved yet NO support!) in april 2004 a list of changes requested by community was summarized by community members and sent to Sunflowers. Then long nothing happened. Then there was long negotiations between Sunflowers and Black Sea Studios (during time when Black Sea Studios had first holidays after 3 years) and when BSS stated they have clear concept for the 2nd patch the community waits over 2 months for official statement of Sunflowers that has only 2 possibilities: yes - make the patch - or not.
based on those arguments there is deep impression among the community members that Sunflowers do everything not to support this game that is generaly (among players and reviewers) considered as very promissing and ambitious project.
The only way how to make this game live at least a little is to make hard and loud preassure on Sunflowers that always refuses any support or activity.
I would like to ask Sunflowers what is their strategy about Knights of Honor. I think about 3 possible answers (though one seems to be very far from truth)
A) we want to support the game and do our best
B) this project was a mistake. We don't want to support it any longer
C) we have no conception what to do with Knights of Honor
if the answer is A, please start to do something because untill now it seems to be right the oposite.
if the answer is B, please sel the rights to somebody else.
if the answer is C, I hope this will force you to make some.
For me personally answers B and C mean that in future I will never buy any other product of Sunflowers because it means they don't give me no servis (would you buy a car with no oportunity to have servis?) or are absolutely unable to manage responsibly things they make.
Do you agree with me? let's vote!
I will continue in spreading this petition on the web untill Sunflowers gives us clear statement.
After the statement comes I will either stop it and take my words back or stop it and boycot all other products of Sunflowers
HavingProblems
27-11-2005, 07:23
I am a North American customer and I am with you Elvain. :go:
I love KoH (it has potential), but the AI is TOO EASY and TOO STUPID.
I should have taken a hint when I was playing the demo as Bohemia. I could conquer anything and everything.
You couldn't have said it better Elvain. Also that's what i ment in my previews post in shorter more agry words :silly:
Anyways, it was about time we took action, From the begginign sunflower has pushed KOH aside. If they don't like why not sell the copyrights to other publisher like paradox....
Well, I like KoH as you my friends.
Though, a rebellion is the wrong way.
Not extremely wise in my opinion.
And in addition to that it does not make real sense.
I wish a patch, too.
Like you.
But I must realize that I bought (okay ..I didn't buy it - it was a christmas present last year :biggrin: ) a game which wasn't as sucessful as it must be to make a 2nd part or a further patch.
I call it "reality".
And that's the place where I usually live
(Except the hours I spent with dreaming of course :wink: )
Webmaster
27-11-2005, 13:55
on monday i will redirect elvain's summary
you can count me in
:angry: :angry: :angry: Sunflowers :angry: :angry: :angry:
Gallifrey
27-11-2005, 14:28
While I understand the frustration many feel, I'm not sure fuming over it like this, placing the publisher in sole position of blame, and demanding answers is all that productive or even worth the effort.
When a publisher contracts a developer to make a game, often there is included in the contract something about patches. Mainly, how many patches is the publisher willing to pay for. It could likely be the contract between Black Sea and Sunflowers included payment for one patch, anything further would require re-negotiations of that contract.
Black Sea may be willing to make a new patch provided they were paid for their time, or maybe they want to get on with other things. I don't know.
Giving ultimatums with a limited number of acceptable answers is probably not going to get you anywhere.
Sure, I'd like to see a patch, but then I'm not sure a simple patch will address all the changes I'd like to see in the game. Perhaps Black Sea would be better working on a new project.
1) When a publisher contracts a developer to make a game, often there is included in the contract something about patches. Mainly, how many patches is the publisher willing to pay for. It could likely be the contract between Black Sea and Sunflowers included payment for one patch, anything further would require re-negotiations of that contract.
Black Sea may be willing to make a new patch provided they were paid for their time, or maybe they want to get on with other things. I don't know.
2) Giving ultimatums with a limited number of acceptable answers is probably not going to get you anywhere.
1) yes, you are right!
but if you remember, the first patch had to be done due to fact of dozens of minor bugs that would have been found if there was some basicly done beta testing!
Any of user mods is tested better than the original game. And it is Sunflowers who is responsible for the beta.
So it was not fault of BSS, but of SF. The game looked like if nobody did beta testing. That was the reason of the first patch.
No matter what was the contract between the companies, have you realized that official support of Sunflowers ended 3 months after the game release? Have you realized that SF customers in North America got NO SUPPORT!
2) I don't give them ultimatum, I stated what I think and asked the community to tell their opinion about this.
It is my right to tell everybody on the web how does this company cares of their customers and how does service of Sunflowers work. (Imagine that you buy a car that has strong engine, but has so many minor nugs that it's hardly possible to make it run. Thne they will repeir your car from those basic bugs, but they will stop their services 3 months after you bought the car!)
I don't offer them limited number of acceptable answers. I only typed 3 answers I can imagine on my question. I will welcome any CERTAIN answer that will say more than "we are not decided yet, we are considering our next steps" because this is answer we recieve for half a year!
PS: I also want to bring some life to the forum. And this discussion may bring it.. maybe it's already late
Olliminatore
27-11-2005, 15:04
I'm nearly new to this game but as far as I can say (and understand),
You are right Elvain (and I agree with your statements), because:
Sunflowers beta testing
- The customer has the right, not to be a beta-tester.
(But other Publisher practice it truly this way too in this time.)
- Sunflowers could have made much more from it.
Guiltily, in sense has bad exhaust the game-potential.
- The playtime is to short.
For instance, older strategic-games, (like Lord of the RealmsII) had much more playtime. Because,
- they has more different maps and
- higher (linear) difficulty.
Sunflowers (patch) support
- The customer has the right to buy a good, errorless, as is it promised game.
(near same as point 1.)
- Guiltily, if Sunflowers mony is more importantly than customers(good games).
- The player/community has right to speak,
(But this community is to weak and really nearly dead.)
- Some other games have no ending support (UT, WoW, ...)
Publicity of Knights of Honor:
- I've also searched/found this game alone.
(But this not a important point.)
- Guiltily, if you want a multiplayer-game.
I personelly came from AoWII, where has the Community self made an kudo famous uPatch 1.4.(40mb, after 2 years)(and the publisher has inofficial supported this patch)
http://aow2.heavengames.com/aowsm/pics/patchproject/Banner.jpg (http://aow2.heavengames.com)
I voted no, I don't agree with the ideas of the anti-sunflowers club.
I think you missed an option in your multiple choice question, Elvain:
D. This game hasn't brought us big money and we have to drop investing time and money in it if we want to continue making games. In other words: we move on, this project's finished.
Edit: However I don't agree with the delay of a response whether Sunflowers will bring out a new patch or not. Though I can find myself in their position, I don't think that they somehow must bring out a patch, that's just pure kindness to the community. If they don't think they can bring out such a patch they should state that clearly, and why.
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