holy roman empire vs. germany

[timurlenk]

actually the hre is called germany by black sea studios.
i suggest to call it - more "correctly" - holy roman empire. what do you think?

[Bora]

Originally posted by timurlenk
actually the hre is called germany by black sea studios.
i suggest to call it - more "correctly" - holy roman empire. what do you think?

the name is: heiliges römisches reich deutscher nation.
means: holy roman empire of german nation.

so roman empire alone is pretty wrong. so i would prefer germany.

[timurlenk]

Originally posted by Bora
the name is: heiliges römisches reich deutscher nation.
means: holy roman empire of german nation.

so roman empire alone is pretty wrong. so i would prefer germany.


the name "hre of the german nation" appears first in the 16. century, thats after game time. the name "german empire" appears 1871.

the hre included (parts of) territories of todays germany, austria, slovenia, switzerland, liechtenstein, belgium, netherlands, luxembourg, czech republic, france, northern, italy and poland.

[Elewyn]

You're absolutely right, @timurlenk.

Everything was around Roman empire in those times. When Charles the Great became emperor, he was Roman emperor!
When Otto of Saxony became empror, he was Roman emperor and his grandson tried for "Renovatio imperi".

When Frederick Barbarossa fought again papacy, he renamed his empire to "Holy Roman Empire" to point out his supremacy over papacy. Then, as timurlenk said, in 16th century it became Holy Roman Empire of German nation (when Switzerland was off, northern Italy was lost, United provinces of Netherland became independent and Bohemian lands wre formally out, only the emperor-archduke of Austria-ruled there)

Oh, but I wanted to say that I'm for Holy Roman Empire which fots to medieval era. However more people will know if it's called Germany (like Roman Empire's legal succesor- "Roman empire" of Greeks is known as Byzantine empire, however it never was called that way in medieval times)

edit: after reading another thread i found this little useless :( But they're right. Game is for pplayers, not for historians

[timurlenk]

Originally posted by Elewyn
[B]You're absolutely right, @timurlenk.

:hug: :hug: :hug:



Originally posted by Elewyn
edit: after reading another thread i found this little useless :( But they're right. Game is for pplayers, not for historians
which thread?
will it be unplayable, if the name is hre? :confused:
cause then we have to rename a lot:
- czech republic instead of bohemia
- belgium instead of flanders
- spain instead of castile
- turkey instead of ottoman empire
and so on...

[Elewyn]

Originally posted by timurlenk
which thread?
will it be unplayable, if the name is hre? :confused:
cause then we have to rename a lot:
- czech republic instead of bohemia
- belgium instead of flanders
- spain instead of castile
- turkey instead of ottoman empire
and so on... Hmm.... :scratch:

We need some strong lobby for Holy Roman Empire. The fact is that I was able to sacrifice Holy Roman Empire, but not Flandres, Castille and Bohemia (can you imagine any republic except venetian and genoese, in medieval?). But now I'm not!!! I'm your loyal ally, timurlenk.

Let's start holy war from Austria and Bohemia to revive such a great empire the Holy Roman Empire was!!!!!:viking: :cheers: :king:

[Frank Fay]

Did it bother you in MTW?

[Elewyn]

Originally posted by Frank Fay
Did it bother you in MTW? I hoped you want be better than MTW :scratch: or am I wrong? :sad:

[timurlenk]

Originally posted by Frank Fay
Did it bother you in MTW?

yes. i did not buy mtw!!!
(EDIT: well, "germany" was not the reason.)



Originally posted by Elewyn
I'm your loyal ally, timurlenk. Let's start holy war from Austria and Bohemia to revive such a great empire the Holy Roman Empire was!!!!!

and im yours! lets encourage ourselves with some pilsener :cheers: and meet our enemys on the field of glory!
in honorem Dei et in honorem sacri imperii romani!

[Frank Fay]

hoped you want be better than MTW

Sure but I was wondering...

[Elewyn]

Sure but I was wondering... Never played it. I found it only through KoH and I better wait for KoH (and HRE there :D)

[Frank Fay]

But putting history knowledge aside. Would you find it as a "normal" customer not strange seeing "Holy Roman Empire of xy nation"? Wouldnt you think "What the heck are the Romans do in a medieval game"?

[Henrik]

Originally posted by Frank Fay
But putting history knowledge aside. Would you find it as a "normal" customer not strange seeing "Holy Roman Empire of xy nation"? Wouldnt you think "What the heck are the Romans do in a medieval game"?

Yeaahhh, it would look kinda wierd - the romans had their time and midieval had its time, so no mixing here thank you ;)

[Angryminer]

I definitely vote for HRE.
And if it's gonna be "Germany" in the final:
How can I change it?

The HRE wasn't a normal "Germany", but a loose connection of German and surrounding nations.
And the name should take account of that.

@Customer:
I don't want to critizise foreign education-systems, but most people know what the HRE was.

So:
Hole Roman Empire.

Angryminer

[Elewyn]

That's simply the reason why I was able to sacrifise historical correctness in case of Holy Roman Empire.

But I think that naming it Holy Roman Empire (+maybe "of Germans") will be so bad. Because when I as normal guy who doesn't know what on earth Romans do in medieval era they will have little motivation to read some short comment to it before he start to play (I hope it will be a little as in Age of Kings, where every nation has some info about itself).

I realized also some people here wonder what Damn Romans do in middle ages.

I don't know the way how the player choses his nation, but I thinh it can be good when in this "options" he will see "Holy Roman Empire/Germany" so he will chose it because there is Germany and he can see it in location of Germany, but will know that it's Holy Roman Empire also. And in game he will play for Holy Roman Empire. I'm sorry, I can't imagine my statement as normal guy who don't know what HRE is, but I think that this way would not mind anybody...

I'm just trying to find some compromise. I hope you'll forgive me my long post. Final decision is ofcourse upon you and I must respect it.

[timurlenk]

Originally posted by Frank Fay
But putting history knowledge aside. Would you find it as a "normal" customer not strange seeing "Holy Roman Empire of xy nation"? Wouldnt you think "What the heck are the Romans do in a medieval game"?


a "normal" customer will also maybe dont know

Burgundy
Aragon
Lithuania
Bohemia
Denmark
Teutonic order
Flandres
Navarre
Castille
Leon
Cordoba
Granada
Ottoman Turks
Transylvania
Carinthia
Slovenia
Brabant
Friesland
Moravia
and so on. (does anybody know the movie "wag the dog" :D )

people which come from these regions, know the names. also people who are interested in history. and - where is the problem to learn something new (@ elewyn :go: )???

[Bora]

german history is difficult to include to a game. so if KoH uses only one name, dont be mean, cause its just easier.

lot of countrys in europe had a difficult and complicated history. in case of germany it was so that it was many times divided and many times united. the lastast time was after WW2
so it also had different names.

edit: my first post here where i wrote it with the extension"deutscher nation" should bring clearence that we are not talking about the roman empire of caesar. we are talking about a country that should be germany in those times. so i must agree to frank, that someone who dont know much of history would wonder what that HRE had in common with rome. cuae rome itself is the palce where the pope has the power.

so i think if the best solution would be to give that country all game long the name: holy roman empire of german nation.
even if its got that full long name in late medieval.
but something that includes the name germany bust be in to give the player a clue.

by the way,... when someone reads this topic he could really get the idea that it has to do with a fight rome (caesar) against geremany (kaiser friedrich, for example) ;)

[Angryminer]

@Bora:
So you think we should rename/remove/annex
Burgundy,
Aragon,
Lithuania,
Bohemia,
Teutonic Order,
Navarre,
Castille,
Leon,
Cordoba,
Granada,
Ottoman Turks,
Transylvania,
Carinthia,
Slovenia,
Brabant,
Friesland,
Moravia,
etc.,
too, because they changed their name, too?

What I want to say:
Fun over accuracy, okay. But when inaccuracy destroys the fun, no.

Angryminer

[Bora]

Originally posted by Angryminer
@Bora:
So you think we should rename/remove/annex
Burgundy,
Aragon,
Lithuania,
Bohemia,
Teutonic Order,
Navarre,
Castille,
Leon,
Cordoba,
Granada,
Ottoman Turks,
Transylvania,
Carinthia,
Slovenia,
Brabant,
Friesland,
Moravia,
etc.,
too, because they changed their name, too?

What I want to say:
Fun over accuracy, okay. But when inaccuracy destroys the fun, no.

Angryminer

no sory, you didnt get it :(

for some of the cauntries that you described it would make no sensen to rename, cause they are simply region/realms provinces and only part of a bigger kingdom.
the HRE is also made of different prvonces like: swabia, bavaria, brandenburg, etc.

and i dont think the HRE was ALL medieval long the HRE as i know there also was a time when it was splitted in many kingdoms and realms.

but i think the the devs and the publisher want to call it only germany, that even some one who has no clue about the german history knows what country it is.

and i dont think it would lower the fun when that name doesnt show historical accuracy.

for myself it doesnt matter if the name is hostorical correct, or if its just a solutiun for historical less interested people.

[Angryminer]

BTW: HRE was always a connection of many nations. It was always splitted. The name "Germany" might even suggest that it's a centralistic nation like the 2nd German Empire, but it wasn't.

But if HRE turns Germany, because poeple might not know about german history, they might not know about french history, so Burgundy should be annexed by France. Bohemia shouldn't be there too, Lithuania should be devided between Poland and Russia, Castille and Aragon should be merged to Spain, including Granada, the Ottoman Empire should turn into Turkey and the Teutonic Order might be unknown to some people, too.

Either leave the HRE's name as it was or be consequent and use today's map for this "medieval" game. ;)

Angryminer