Few questions about specific area/realms

[Finellach]

I've seen few screenshots where you can see the small map in the right end of the screen. Anyway on few maps where the Croatia can bee seen I've noticed a small(or should I say big mistake :D ).

Well on to the point...I've seen that Croatia(as a realm around Zagreb) is placed just next to Vojvodina and Slavonia is north of Croatia in area of Slovenia!!!!!(someone mixed something?). Anyway thats totally wrong. The realm of Croatia would be in area around Zagreb then a bit south all the way to the mountains then Dalmatia begins(I've seen it going all the way to the sea) and Slavonia is east of this area and is inbetween so called Croatia and Vojvodina and north of Bosnia...todays area of Croatia between Hungary and Bosnia.

Btw. when I mentioned them where are Bosnia and Dalmatia?! I haven't seen them as separate realms either?!

[Elewyn]

They did some changes of "original" layout of realm locations.

here (http://www.knights-of-honor.net//english/screenshot.php?screenshot=0071&all=0083|0082|0081|0080|0079|0078|0072|0071|0070#) you can see that there is Bosnia but not Dalmatia, but as I said, it's not sure it won't be there... because if you look at Austria and realm below-Slavonia (aaaarrrrrrggghh:angry: ) and then look here (http://www.knights-of-honor.net//english/screenshot.php?screenshot=0092&all=0092|0091|0090|0089|0088|0087|0086|0085|0084#) you can see changes.
You can see it's little wrong again, but I already asked them (some time ago) to change it again (at least put name Salzburg to place of Tyrolia and the realm which is there called Salzburg(originaly-before it was Slavonia) rename to Carinthia.

For Dalmatia there maybe is not enough place so they sacrifised it, because Balkans have too small realms (so small can be seen only in Italy)

[Finellach]

Well in the first screen I am most sure Croatia as a whole is by far to the north, I mean it tooks the area of todays Slovenia while this area was divided between Austria and Venice later Italy. Hungary on the other hand is placed way too south than it should be. Honestly I don't see Bosnia in that first screen, I see only Croatia who tooks the whole area of Croatia, Dalmatia and Bosnia. Slavonia is on the other hand not supposed to be north of Zagreb....that is Slovenia....:p

I understand this may produce some too small provinces, but thats the way it is. I mean you can't remove Wales from Britan can you now? Of course not....
Croatian Kingdom consisted of four provinces: Croatia(central), Slavonia, Dalmatia and Bosnia. Bosnia was at first divided between first three and to the southeast by Monte Negro(although it had a different name) and by Rashka. Thats way the official name of the kingdom was Trillateral Kingdom of Croatia, Slavonia and Dalmatia. Later Bosnia due to some certain circumestances became partially independant although it was still vassal state to Croatian-Hungarian King. Bosnia got it's own Ban as well(Ban is explicitly a "Croatian" title).

In the second you can't see the area I am talking about, but the placement of some northern realms is different so they indeed fixed it...partially, but until I see the area around Bosnia and Slavonia I can't tell.

I reall hope they will fix this. I understand that these realms might be too small, but then if you want to make it correct they have to be that way....Croatia never was very big kingdom.

Btw. when we are talking about small realms what about Ragusa(Dubrovnik) and similar tiny, but still independant states or duchies?

[Elewyn]

But you also can't do all realms like Carniola, Caranthia, Styria, Austria, Bavatia, Upper Pfalz, Saxony-Meissen, Brandenburg, Mecklenburg, Braunschweig, Saxonia, Thuringia, Hessen, Nassau, Westphalia, Pfalz, Baden, Württemberg, Lorraine, Swabia and so on in Germany because they are simply too small.

Bosnia is there- blue realm under Vojvodina, you can see it when doing some short research in KoH screenshot gallery. The problem of those maps is that it can't be exactly how it is in reality.
Balkan Realms of "Yugoslavia" are Croatia, Vojvodina, Bosnia, Belgrade. I suggested it little different: likethis (http://elvain.album.cz/map-suggestions/), this (http://elvain.album.cz/map-suggestions/ttt49bddcf528326366.jpg) or this (http://elvain.album.cz/map-suggestions/853974?win=1#) with Dalmatia, Croatia, Slavonia, Vojvodina, Bosnia and Serbia, but as you can see those realms are too small also, so I don't think they will do it like this(at least there won't be one of Slavonia or Dalmatia) and if you want to put Slovenia(btw it's no historical land! only Carniola/Crania)there too it will be too much

When Croatia never was a big kingdom, it can never consist from many realms in KoH. Or you will have to stop me screaming for Lusatia and all those German realms which deserve to be realms. Also areas of Blois, Poitou, Gascoigne, Nevers etc in France.
Wales and England were bad examples. Wales is big enogh to be separate realm, not the case of Slavonia and Dalmatia

[Finellach]

Well I must say I like the second map. That would be the best way to do it actually. Croatia should be divided into at least two realms. One MUST be Dalmatia and one Slavonia. On this map you provided Bosnia is in Serbia I presume, but although it's not correct I am quite pleased with the position of Bosnia.

I urge the makers of this wonderful game to make this as in the mentioned map. :(

[Kuno of Gersenau]

It's from an egg, isn't it?

[Finellach]

Interesting map, I presume that the town/fortress icons represent the capitals of the certain realm/area.

Either way it seems that Zagreb is there, but it's realms is a bit bigger than I though of. It encomapsses half of todays Slovenia also, northern Ariatic Sea and parts of Bosnia and Slavonia. Slavonia on the other hand is seems in some other realm. Judging from the screenshots it's still in realm of Vojvodina. Also it seems there is no Dalmatia, but only Bosnia which includes southern parts of Dalmatia and most of the area of todays Bosnia. Well I would be pleased if both realms of Bosnia and Croatia would be one nation and posibbly Vojvodina although Vojvodina(with Slavonia as it seems) would be more appropriate as realm of Hungary.

Where did you get this map?

[Henrik]

Originally posted by Elewyn
This (http://elvain.album.cz/map-suggestions/ttt3dd0ec1d4b3cd944.jpg) seems to be a map with KoH realms...

ohhh, you managed to grab it Elewyn - GREAT :) - i'll hope they will put all the new screenshots in the screenshots section, coz i think a lot of them were really nice.

[Elewyn]

I too. The link is changed a little.

I only hope that it will be changed a little. At least, I BEG. If there is Bavaria and Bohemia as realms, make them neighbours. It will look very strange to have Tyrolia, or Slazburg or anything else between those two.

So, here (http://elvain.album.cz/map-suggestions/ttt5e6da3a5527db69b.jpg) is a map of Europe from KoH wallpaper with realm frontiers pointed out

[Finellach]

Yes it's like I suggested. "Croatian Realms" are divided between Croatia and Bosnia. Interesting. Well I wouldn't object, but I would still like it better if they've made Slavonia, Croatia and Dalmatia a separate realms and Bosnia separate one, I think they could do it. I mean those realms would be among the smallest ones, but I see here smaller or at least ones of the same size...ah well...

[dearmad]

This thread perfectly illustrates the main problems with the Balkans.

Will no one ever see the meta-argument going on and get over it?

[Finellach]

And what problem would that be?

[Elewyn]

:D Simple. You want the smallest realms possible for Croatia or whole Balkans, but you absolutely don't mind that Serbia has only one realm, which is almost the largest on the map. It should be divided too, or not? I'm not expert of Balkan history, but regions like Raschka and Serbia or what?

But regarding the fact theat Frujin didn't promissed any changes with realms (he said sth like only very few will change their shapes) I don't think that some significant changes will be made.
But IMO if moving of realm frontier is not so big problem, Dalmatia shold be added to the coast between Croatia and Bosnia(and Bosnia moved a little to south.

And one to German area: Why is Franconia so long and large? I think especially in Germany there's no need to have huge realms like this. In western part of that realm is beautiful place for Nassau IMO...

ehm....what about this? (http://elvain.album.cz/map-suggestions/1086645?win=1#)

[Finellach]

Originally posted by Elewyn
:D Simple. You want the smallest realms possible for Croatia or whole Balkans, but you absolutely don't mind that Serbia has only one realm, which is almost the largest on the map. It should be divided too, or not? I'm not expert of Balkan history, but regions like Raschka and Serbia or what?

Why would I mind Serbia?
I mean if I mentioned Serbia then someone would say: "look another Croat/Serb/Bosnian(Muslim) with his nationalistic crap. I am from Croatia and Croatia is what is I think about. I leave Serbia for Serbs.
I've looked some old maps and this is what I've found:

Croatia around 800 A.D.
http://www.croatia-in-english.com/images/maps/800s.jpg (http://)
We see that Croatia is divided into two realms Panonian Croatia or later Slavonia and Croatia or later Dalmatia and Bosnia.

Croatia in 10th century - time of first Croatian King Tomislav...the first of Croatian Ban's(Princess) who succeeded to unite Croatian provinces of Slavonia, Dalmatia and Croatia(with parts of Bosnia who was at that time divided and under influence of other region Ban's).
http://www.croatia-in-english.com/images/maps/tomislav.jpg (http://)
We see that Croatia is divided into Panonian Croatia and Sea Croatia(Panonska i Primorska Hrvatska).

Croatia in 11th centuryhttp://www.croatia-in-english.com/images/maps/1073.jpg (http://)
For the first time we see the name Bosnia, you also must note that Bosnia was at that time by far smaller than it's today. It marked the land in the most east of todays Bosnia and Herzegovina around the river Bosnia by which Bosnia got it's name.

Croatia in 1102. A.D. Croatia makes deal with Hungary, Pacta Conventa. Croatia and Hungary become dual-kingdoms under one King...who btw. is of course of Hungarian line. :rolleyes: :p
We see here that Bosnia is now under the rule of Duklja, Serbian Union of Serbian provinces. But once again I must note that Bosnia before 15th century was by far smaller.
http://www.croatia-in-english.com/images/maps/1102.jpg (http://)

Croatia in 1358. A.D. Best map because it ery clearly definies the border between Croatian provinces.
http://www.croatia-in-english.com/images/maps/1358.jpg (http://)
Here we see that Croatia is divided once again into two parts...one is the north part or Slavonia with Gradec as free royal town and IMO the most important administrative place.
The other part are Croatia(area behind the very coast of Dalmatia and parts of todays BiH) and of course with Bosnia.

As you can see from these maps in my opinion old Croatian Kingdom should be divided into two provinces: Slavonia and Croatia.

Slavonia would encompass the area around zagreb(Agram) all the way to Sirmium to the east, Styria and Caranthia to the West and to the South to the border with Croatia.

Now Croatia would encompass todays Dalmatia with the parts in the mainland and parts of the most of whats today Bosnia and Herzegovina. Also it must be made clear once again that Bosnia was at that time very small province just to the east of todays BiH with the border of then Rashka(or one of Serbian provinces).
Serbia in my opinion should also be divided into two parts, but as I said I am not a Serb so I leave it to them. Besides Slavonia and Dalmatia(Croatia) were separate provinces even in the roman times so I believe they should stay that way.

So finally I say no to Bosnia as separate province, such region is too small to be independant and especially so because it was incoporated into other kingdoms and provinces. This game is placed in 12th to 14th century not 20th century. Some people should realize that...

Btw. I looked at the map you posted once again and my suggestion is(too bad I can't draw it the way you do). There should be four provinces: Slavonia, Croatia(Dalmatia), Rashka and Duklja(or Serbia).
Slavonia as I said would be to the North to the same border as today Croatia has with Hungary. To the East all the way to Panonia and to the West to Styria(if I am not mistaken). To the South to the river of Sava and a little beyond.
Croatia would be whole Adriatic Coast to the penninsula of Peljesac and to the east to Rashka(border would be somewhere around river Bosna - Bosnia). To The Northwest to Istria and border with Venice. Rashka would be in the area of todays Montenegro and Kosovo. And Serbia or Duklja or however it was called would be the rest. Vojvodina would be separate province, most likely under the jurisdiction of Hungary, Bulgaria and Byzantine.

I hope I didn't went a bit too far with this large post, but I hope at least someone from the KoH team is reading this. I would really like to hear a word from Frank Fay or Fruijin to tell me what they think about it, because I really don't like the concept of realms in the Balkans as it is now. Thx. ;)

[Elewyn]

Hmm... none of your links work ;(

I only find little strange that you want the map preciously perfect only in one area and you don't mind no other regions, even if they are near the corner ;)

I want the map as perfect as possible simply everywhere!! But possibility is now more important.

[Angryminer]

I've redone his links:
first (http://www.croatia-in-english.com/images/maps/800s.jpg)
second (http://www.croatia-in-english.com/images/maps/tomislav.jpg)
third (http://www.croatia-in-english.com/images/maps/1073.jpg)
fourth (http://www.croatia-in-english.com/images/maps/1102.jpg)
fifth (http://www.croatia-in-english.com/images/maps/1358.jpg)

At last my comment:
This is a game. So we need to find a way between realism and fun.

Angryminer

[Elewyn]

Thanks, Angryminer.

I also must agree with you. Not everything is possible in the game.

[Finellach]

Originally posted by Elewyn
Hmm... none of your links work ;(

I only find little strange that you want the map preciously perfect only in one area and you don't mind no other regions, even if they are near the corner ;)

I want the map as perfect as possible simply everywhere!! But possibility is now more important.

Thats why because I don't know how it was everywhere. I know about Croatia and surrounding areas and thats what interests me. Besides I don't think other areas are so complex as this one.

Anyway I found some screenshot from EU2 and I liked what I saw. I think they should done it soemthing similar to it. Only thing would be that the area called there Croatia should be named Slavonia and Dalmatia(with half of Istria realm) should be Croatia.

[Elewyn]

Besides I don't think other areas are so complex as this one.
I'm not sure if I got your point in this. do you meant complex as complicated? If yes, I must disagree! Area of Holy Roman Empire, Low Lands are very complicated, far more than YOUR region.

And one important thing. You have seen screenshots of EUII. Have you seen there any diference with KoH (except that area of todays Croatia is better done, only names are not so good)

If not, I'll help you. Count how many regions is in France in KoH and EUII, the same with Germany etc. The realms of EUII are in average twice numerous than in KoH and I really think that in many regions very badly done.

[Finellach]

Well for one I don't like the fact Bosnia will be a separate realm. As I said Bosnia did not exist at that time as an indpenendant region, it became such only later in history when Ban Trvtko Kotromanovic succeeded to add some Croatia lands(from todays Dalmatia) and Serbian land from Rashka(todays Kosovo) and even as such it is clear Ban Trvtko as catholic and with his title of Ban belonged to western(Croatian culture). That happened in 15th century just before the arrival of Ottoman Turks.

My thread is instigated mainly because I have a feeling this game in case of Bosnia is reagarding too much some sort of political correctness, but that is wrong especially when we talk about a historical game like this.

Anyway I don't want people to regard me as some nationalists or something similar. I am just a purist and I like things to be correct as much as it is posibble. Especially when we talk about Croatia and the surrounding areas.