OK my first post (and question!)

[Drake Maethor]

Well, first a toast :cheers: to everybody since it's the first time I write something here. (I love that smilie! excellent...)

And now, after the beer, to business!
I don't know if this has been asked before, but if that is the case, then I didn't find anything about it. So I assume, that wasn't the case. :cool:
I've read that the Teutonic Order of Knights will be a playable faction, with realms and everything, sounds great to me...
BUT..... what about the most powerful and misterious order of the Middle Ages????
Yes, of course I'm talking about the Templars...
So, what about them?
Considering their big influence in the middle ages, not only military speaking but also politically and in an economic point of view......
Will them be another faction present in the game???
Or is still Pope Clemens rocking on, hidden somewhere inside the desing team???
Chasing everyone with the Red Cross on???
(and the prohibition of the order still ruling in the 21st century)

I hope not!!! Poor templars! (and gamers! :D )

Well anyway, big congrats to the team working in this game! For what I've seem you are making a very good product, and also caring about the online community at the same time, not a commong thing to see!
So, keep up the good work!
Many people are trusting you and the game.

[Rnett]

And a toast to you :cheers:

Welcome :hello:

[Finellach]

Templars will be present indeed.
If you capture certain realms/provinces in todays France you will be able to summon them as your infantry or special units.

Teutonic Champion will also be present as a unit if you capture realms in Baltic, Poland and Germany. Btw. this units has been announced not long ago.

Also note that Teutonic Order as "kingdom" in fact represents union of realms held by Teutonic Order...as far as I know Templars never held any realms in such manner.

[timurlenk]

Originally posted by Finellach
Also note that Teutonic Order as "kingdom" in fact represents union of realms held by Teutonic Order...as far as I know Templars never held any realms in such manner.

yop, thats the big difference. teutonic order hold territories as possessors. templars hold possessions in existing kingdoms / realms (e.g. france). so you can use the templar's units, but not play as "templar kingdom".


the pope will play his role, but its not exactly defined up to date. maybe there will be a philipp 4 / clemens 5 templar extermination event, who knows??? :angel: :angry:

[Finellach]

Yes excatly.

I wonder if Templars will only going to be present in France. As I know their orders and guilds/churches spread all over the Catholic/West Europe although they indeed started in France. IMO that would be great.:angel:

[Teutonic_Knight]

I agree the Templars should not be a "nation" because they weren't a nation, but rather a collective holdings by a particular order. The Teutons were, however, a nation/empire and were the political and military force of all that they controlled.

[Drake Maethor]

Thanks for the greetings Rnett!

About the Templars subject, yes that all put things clear.
But if you are going to be able to hire/train Templars units, then why are they not present in the units showcase???
Is the answer to this question: Because "this units has been announced not long ago."? (Did you try to suggest that, Finellach?)

And another thing, in all medieval RTS games that I've seen, it seems that they love using the Special Order Knights (ie Teutonic Knight in AOK or LOTRIII) as an infantry unit...
OK, that's good, however we all know that being an Order of CHIVALRY their most typical unit was a MOUNTED WARRIOR/KNIGHT. I'm not saying that they didn't have infantry, because in fact yes they did (I think the standard ratio was something like 2 infantry for 1 knight), but when you see that guy clad in full armor walking on the screen sometimes don't you feel that maybe he is looking for his horse?
I think that these games are forgetting about the real ELITE unit of the Orders (Templars, Teutonic, Hospitaliers...), and that they are using as an elite unit one that was a second force.
Maybe for balance reasons, but for me looks little odd...
And seeing this special mounted warriors would add to the game.
So, how things will be in KOH? "Mounted Teutons Heavy Cavalry TM" or just the Teutonic Champions?

Finally, about the Pope Templar extermination event...
Maybe some good and ORIGINAL way to balance the game (when a faction becomes to powerful) is hiding behind that idea... Don't you think?

[Finellach]

Drake Maethor I was saying that Teutonic Champion specifications have been revealed not so long ago. Templar specification(armor, weapon, strenght) have yet to be revealed, but they will be in game. ;)

Also it is known that Teutonic Champions and Templars had cavlary, but as you pointed they had infantry as well. It was game devs descion that made them infantry in this game. One that I agree with. You can't have two dozen of different cavlaries running around. ;)

[timurlenk]

Originally posted by Drake Maethor
And another thing, in all medieval RTS games that I've seen, it seems that they love using the Special Order Knights (ie Teutonic Knight in AOK or LOTRIII) as an infantry unit...
OK, that's good, however we all know that being an Order of CHIVALRY their most typical unit was a MOUNTED WARRIOR/KNIGHT.

we discussed about this in another thread some time ago. (here) (http://forum.sunflowers.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=809&highlight=mounted+templars)

but i dont guess, they will add mounted order units :(

but i agree, teutonic knights / templars per pedes are kind of funny :bday: ("damned, someone has stolen my horse... beaaaaaaaaaauuuuuuty, beeeeeaaaaaauuuuutyyyyy!" :p )

[Elewyn]

Yes, as Duke Maethor and timurlenk I think they should be mounted units, it would fit more to that times (mostly-specialized units were mounted - I wonder a little why one kind of nobility-Boyars- are mounted, however other-Templars etc.- are infantry)

Then also. Diference between Teutonic order and Templar order was that Teutons were invited to Baltic lands to fight against pagans and all lands they conquered they took for themselves. Templars only protected Holy lands and held many estates allover Europe, mainly in France (so then they're special unit in France), but no large domains like Teutons. Hospitaliers held some larger areas-islands of Rhode and after middleages ended also on Malta, but both of them are too small to be separate realms

[Drake Maethor]

Originally posted by Finellach

Also it is known that Teutonic Champions and Templars had cavlary, but as you pointed they had infantry as well. It was game devs descion that made them infantry in this game. One that I agree with. You can't have two dozen of different cavlaries running around. ;)

All right! But you have two dozen of different infantry running around!!!
:confused:

[Finellach]

Yes, but infantry is by far more common than cavalry.

Either way it would be ridiculous if we would have mounted Templars and Teutonic Knights and non-mounted Templars and Teutonics.

[Vytis]

I don't think in medieval times infantry was 'by far more common' than cavalry. AFAIK, battles were dominated by cavalry.

[Drake Maethor]

Originally posted by Finellach
Yes, but infantry is by far more common than cavalry.

Either way it would be ridiculous if we would have mounted Templars and Teutonic Knights and non-mounted Templars and Teutonics.

:confused: :confused: :confused:
It was ridicolous in the Middle Ages???
;)

[benjamin]

While it is a known fact that the Templars Knights and Teutonic Knights had infantry, it is also a known fact that they themselves where the mounted knights. They were in charge of infantry, but were not infantry themselves. To make the Templar Knights and Teutonic Knights infantry would be very weird.

The solution to it may be that the infantry is commanded by a Templar Knight or Teutonic Knight on a horse.

[Finellach]

Maethor this is a game and as such it cannot be the excat reproduction of the real events. There can't be 30 types of cavlary and 3 types of infantry. It's simple as that.

Benjamin you have a good point. Knights will be on horse as will the King and his guards as well. ;)

[Jarlabanke]

Cavalry dominated the battlefield by being superior in effect and not quantity.

[Elewyn]

Originally posted by Finellach
There can't be 30 types of cavlary and 3 types of infantry. It's simple as that.
I don't think so. I personally will prefere more cavalry units. Those who were famous as knights-so means mounted-shold be mounted in games with qualities and accuratness of KoH. But I know it's more dificult for graphics, so I'm looking forward to some pleasant surprise :angel:

[Vytis]

Cavalry dominated the battlefield by being superior in effect and not quantity.
Cavalry is not always superior in effect : Agincourt.
As for quantity [infantry:cavalry ratio] that probably depends on what nations we're talking about. Teutonic Order, Poland, Lithuania, nomadic tribes (mongols), had more cavalry than infantry. So naturally in a battle of those forces cavalry dominated in numbers.

[Drake Maethor]

Originally posted by Finellach
Maethor this is a game and as such it cannot be the excat reproduction of the real events. There can't be 30 types of cavlary and 3 types of infantry. It's simple as that.

Sure you are right, but in the current showcase there are 9 infantry (plus 3 if you count the polearms units), against 8 cavalry! So, 12 infantry against 8 cavalry!
Very far away of the 30 cavalry vs 3 infantry! :p

Anyway, relax, I know already this is a game. And also I know a little about programming and of the complications that appear when you model real events in an informatic system. Trust me, I had to do a medium sized simulation project for university. Every day new ideas come, you see better ways of implementing things and more exiciting things to add. And so you add them. But hell! the ideas never stop coming! :eek: So there is a moment when you have to say enough or you will never finish the product, or you won't have the time to polish it because of those damned (but necesary) schedules! (that happened to me with my project :( many good ideas ate the precious time and we had to deliver it in a very raw state).
So well, if there won't be some Templar or Teutonic cavalry along with the Templar/Teutonic infantry because of schedule reasons, then its ok, I surely can live with that! :D
And I totally understand. It's far better a well polished game than one that is very complete but seems to be not cooked well enough (We can throw many examples! of games that would have been classics if only they had a little more time!).
And after all, of course there are knights in the game! I mean units that can represent those cavalry units, only it's a pity if none will wear the Red Cross...
Maybe just some crusader type of cavalry (as someone suggested) would have been a nice solution... (There was one in CIV2) But OK, is just a simple wish.

OK, enough for today! Bed is awaiting!
Please excuse me for the little long post, and the boring stories of war :p
But indulge me a final tough: Is a a little interesting how this (silly?) fashion started by Microsoft (or Ensemble) with AOK continues along the way: The paradox of the famous Orders of KNIGHTS units appearing as infantry instead of KNIGHTS.
OK, that's all! Thank you very much for reading!
Off to bed!
:yawn: :yawn: :yawn: