What nations can you play?

[Siena]

agree with Elewyn here

1. Lithuanian coat of arms was a white horseman, not a white horse.
http://flagspot.net/images/l/lt-s3x.gif

or early coat of arms was this:
http://flagspot.net/images/l/lt-s3xrv.gif

2. I also think, that Poland should not have Prussia in any period.


Otherwise - map looks very nice

[Elewyn]

oooh maybe something more. I am sorry, because I realy want to thank you very very much for showing us that merveleous screenshots.

I have some more ideas for early-period-map.
First I wanted to have Italy together with Italy but now I realized that having Lotharingia as Independent it makes sense to have also Italy (because this part of Europe is moved more to 900AD)

But I see more problems on East. Here the main step out is placing Muscovy there, because Moscow was absolutely unimpotrtant in times before 1300(it took it's place after Mongol invasion), so dividing it between Kiev and Suzdal or giving whole to Kiev is better solution IMO.
Then as I said Lithuania is also not really right, then I don't know why Sweden is removed :((my sympathy to Jarlabanke nd Jorghan) and if somebody from Spain won't have better idea, rename Spain to Catalonia or Barcelona as vassal of France.

[Finellach]

The CoA's do look a bit strange and rather oversimplified. Though I must say I don't agree with you Elewyn. You see Serbian CoA is that famous orthodox-Byznatine cross with four letter C's on every side of it. The same is for Georgia and Trebzonid. I know it looks a lot like "Hungarian (Lorraine) cross" but it's not. Also Serbia should definately should have that CoA. The one with eagle is of Nemanjic family and later Karadjordjevic family with the incorporated previously mentioned original Serbian CoA.

I must say I hoped that CoA's will be much more realistic and authentic....ah well...you can't go wrong with Croatiain CoA. :D :p

Btw. I looked at those CoA's made by Elewyn and I must say I was confused by two CoA's I couldn't recongize. One is for Italy(the green with the three fleurs and identical to later French CoA except the backround color) used also in KoH as we can see. I must say I looked for CoA of Italy and I couldn't find nothing so I am wondering from where is this CoA coming? Also there is one with pink backround and a horse or posibbly a unicorn in area where Saxony should be. As far as I know Saxony didn't had horse or unicorn on their CoA. Elewyn?

[Elewyn]

I think we can't have every detail, guys.

I really like word "oversimplified" because can you imagine how the graphics(guys who must draw it all) will do details like two tails for Boemian lion, horsemen on Lithuanian horse, four small crosses in corners of Jerusalem's coat, those little hearts around danish coat, emblems of Navarra, Ukraine or Portugal. They will become mad and nobody will see it, because it will be too small and invisible.

Yea, I didn't noticed that difference, hungary has little diferent cross, I am sorry.

I also changed my mind with kingdoms offered there for 1200.
I must say I am really satisfied with Iberian peninsula, Britain and Scandinavia(except Coats of Denmark and Sweden,why not Danenborg? why not Tre kronur?), then with Africa and Middle East, Asia Minor and the Balkans. But...
Why Kazan which is in area of golden Horde, first city to fall because of mongols in European Russia?
Why Ukraine which didn't exist those times wen divided among Kiev, Volhynia, Cumans and Golden Horde? and right next corner-area of Volhynia, Galicia is empty, none of existing Russian princedoms there is offered and on east where they can't survive danger of Golden Horde, there is bunch of them :( neither Lithuania, Poland, "Ukraine", Muscovy, nor Golden Horde and Teutons, none of them rulled in western Russia(Volhynia, Galicia, Kiev, Turov-Pinsk) in those times.
Regarding Russia in 1200:
yes to Golden Horde, Novgorod and Muscovy
maybe to Ryazan
No to Ukraine and Kazan, put Kiev and Smolensk or Galicia instead, please.

Then Italy. No papal state? in times of almost most powerfull pope: Innocent III.??? and Naples and Sicily instead of Kingdom of Sicily which was right in the end of XII cent. on the top?
So, At least. Sicily and Naples should be put together, Papacy should emerge, the north with Venice and Genoa on top is really good.
And also France should have vassal in Tolouse at least if not in Flandre too.
Last is Switzerland. I think it's little too early. Their independency started in later XIII century and before 1350 was not really strong.

@Finellach, Italian is made up by BSS and because i had no idea, I let it be Italy has no coat before 1866, because there was no Italy before.
Saxony: It depends what part of Saxony you mean. If Lower Saxony, then right silver(white) horse on red shield. Upper Saxony around today Dresden has ofcourse far diferent coat. I'm glad you disliked only 2 coats there. The colors there were little muted, I might let it as it is originally, collected by me. here (http://elvain.album.cz/heraldry/)

That what you mentioned, this (http://elvain.album.cz/map-suggestions/ttt6b01695d645e638b.jpg) is halfway between accurancy and game-it is suggestion, not exact true, which is impossibe to be implemented in game.

[Finellach]

I didn't said I dislike it, but more that I couldn't find any sources for the two mentioned. ;)

I must say that your CoA's are well drawn, but they have a few mistakes. Mainly in choice. For example. Irish coat of arms should be blue instead of green backround. The one you have is CoA of Leinster. Wales should also be a lot different with four red and yellow squares and a lion in each also red and yellow opposite to the colour in which it's placed. Hungarian should also be white backround with red lines, the one you have came a bit a later. And also Serbian should be different one as mentioned. ;)

But as I said very well drawn for someone who did as a hobby. ;)

[Elewyn]

Originally posted by Finellach
Wales should also be a lot different with four red and yellow squares and a lion in each also red and yellow opposite to the colour in which it's placed. where did you find that?
I am little interested abut Wales and I never seen diferent coat than shown, only a dragon there is "lying" instead of being in jump

[Vytis]

Originally posted by Elewyn
I must say I am really satisfied with Iberian peninsula, Britain and Scandinavia(except Coats of Denmark and Sweden,why not Danenborg? why not Tre kronur?), then with Africa and Middle East, Asia Minor and the Balkans. But...
Why Kazan which is in area of golden Horde, first city to fall because of mongols in European Russia?
Why Ukraine which didn't exist those times wen divided among Kiev, Volhynia, Cumans and Golden Horde? and right next corner-area of Volhynia, Galicia is empty, none of existing Russian princedoms there is offered and on east where they can't survive danger of Golden Horde, there is bunch of them :( neither Lithuania, Poland, "Ukraine", Muscovy, nor Golden Horde and Teutons, none of them rulled in western Russia(Volhynia, Galicia, Kiev, Turov-Pinsk) in those times.
Regarding Russia in 1200:
yes to Golden Horde, Novgorod and Muscovy
maybe to Ryazan
No to Ukraine and Kazan, put Kiev and Smolensk or Galicia instead, please.
Then Italy. No papal state? in times of almost most powerfull pope: Innocent III.??? and Naples and Sicily instead of Kingdom of Sicily which was right in the end of XII cent. on the top?
So, At least. Sicily and Naples should be put together, Papacy should emerge, the north with Venice and Genoa on top is really good.
And also France should have vassal in Tolouse at least if not in Flandre too.
Last is Switzerland. I think it's little too early. Their independency started in later XIII century and before 1350 was not really strong.

Agree with pretty much everything.
No such thing as 'Ukraine' in medieval times.
Pope was the most powerful and important person in those times. Playing papacy would be an interesting option.

Have to dissagree about CoA of Lithuania. There's a huge difference between a simple horsie and Vytis (http://neris.mii.lt/homepage/vytis.html) (lith. knight).

A little about 'Welsh (http://flagspot.net/flags/gb-w-ind.html) lions'.

[Elewyn]

Originally posted by Vytis
A little about 'Welsh (http://flagspot.net/flags/gb-w-ind.html) lions'. Yea. Modern separatistic flag which goes aggainst historical tradition of english rule which is today represented by historical Welsh flag(and coat).

Here is link to historical Welsh flag (http://flagspot.net/flags/gb-wa-hs.html) ;)

I understand you and your desire to have absolutely right coat for your country. So maybe offer BSS to draw it? Maybe they will apreciate your try :)

You know, there is little diference if some state has absloutely wrong coat or almost right coat with one impotrant thing missing, but it's still recognizable as Lithuanian one. Some states have some things added, which are really incorrect from historical point of view, but necessary for game to keep some nuances among kingdom colors (Serbia and Poland have almost the same coat, the same with Russia and Byzantium-the only luck is that this Russian coat was used in later times, so municipal coats are used instead). I know, for me it's easier, Bohemia has very simple coat, very obvious lion.

Now I have an idea for Italy. What about to use coat of Lombardy or Visconti, which is here (http://flagspot.net/flags/it-lom-m.html) as flag of Milan dukedom?

[Frujin]

The Pope is there, but it is the ONLY not playable faction.

[Siautas]

Who have sold Prussia to Poland :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: ????? Slavs never lived in Prussia this is Baltic land.:mad:

Hope game creators will edit this map in final version of the game.

[Elewyn]

Originally posted by Frujin
The Pope is there, but it is the ONLY not playable faction. Thanks, Frujin :cheers: so papacy on this screenshot (http://www.knights-of-honor.net//english/screenshot.php?screenshot=0119&all=0119|0118|0117|0116|0115|0114|0113|0112|0111#) is about to be removed?

btw. In high period. Teutonic order is in Transylvaina (around 1210) or in Baltics (after 1227)??

[timurlenk]

hmm, i dont understand this screenshot at all. there are 9 playable fractions in england, scotland, wales & ireland?
(munster, leister, ulster, wessex, wales, anglia, york, lothian, highlands)
:confused:

@ elewyn
yeah, switzerland in high period (1200)? it was founded 1291 and got independence from habsburg 1315. :)
better put it in late period, hmm?


yeah, ukraine? wouldnt it be better to call it (grand duchy / princedom) of kievan rus′ or simply kiev like in early period?

i agree with the suggestion to give moscow to kiev in early period.



cant help myself, this "germany" is like a slap in the face - shiver, shiver :sad:

[Kuno of Gersenau]

Originally posted by timurlenk
@ elewyn
yeah, switzerland in high period (1200)? it was founded 1291 and got independence from habsburg 1315. :)
better put it in late period, hmm
Well, the time is ABOUT 1200, clear 1291 is more near 1350, but the independent didnt arise on one claps. This was a process of many years. I would say it's okay, but my opinion isn't really neutral I think...;)

[Henrik]

Originally posted by Elewyn
I think we can't have every detail, guys.

I really like word "oversimplified" because can you imagine how the graphics(guys who must draw it all) will do details like two tails for Boemian lion, horsemen on Lithuanian horse, four small crosses in corners of Jerusalem's coat, those little hearts around danish coat, emblems of Navarra, Ukraine or Portugal. They will become mad and nobody will see it, because it will be too small and invisible.

I also changed my mind with kingdoms offered there for 1200.
I must say I am really satisfied with Iberian peninsula, Britain and Scandinavia(except Coats of Denmark and Sweden,why not Danenborg? why not Tre kronur

Yeahh, i'll agree Elewyn with you regarding both the danish and swedish COA :) - but as i remember the screenshot was from the early period, so it must be some sort of a raven banner - however i think that Danes at should have three crowned lions in their banner or the colors of the Dannebrog and the same goes for Sweden ( i think they would "settle" with the tre kronor - if i know we may "sacrifice" the facts of history a little but i think it's okay - just give us (both danes and swedes ) some colors we can relate to.

[Elewyn]

I'm affraid, Henrik, that that eagle is not only in for early medieval period, since it is also on this screenshot (http://www.knights-of-honor.net//english/screenshot.php?screenshot=0118&all=0122|0121|0120|0119|0118|0117|0116|0115|0114) in high period.

Damn, I forgot that Swedish tre kronor are little too similar to French three lilies :( so one crown? or coat of Vasa dynasty? or nowadays flag?

[Jarlabanke]

If they won't have the three crowns they could give us the *shrug* Folkunga lion.

http://www.adelsvapen.com/medeltidsvapen/pages/Folkunga-kungar_tif.htm

The Vasa weren't medieval and the modern flag is even later.
Why Sweden isn't on Kingdom selection II is far beyond my understanding.

[Siena]

Originally posted by Elewyn
I think we can't have every detail, guys.

I really like word "oversimplified" because can you imagine how the graphics(guys who must draw it all) will do details like two tails for Boemian lion, horsemen on Lithuanian horse, four small crosses in corners of Jerusalem's coat, those little hearts around danish coat, emblems of Navarra, Ukraine or Portugal. They will become mad and nobody will see it, because it will be too small and invisible.


I would not worry about graphics guys. I am pretty sure that they can do emblems right.
Europa Universalis had Lithuanian Emblem done right, by the way. It is quite visible.

Regarding Ukraine, Sveden and other countries - I hope they will be fixed.

[Finellach]

Originally posted by Elewyn
Yea. Modern separatistic flag which goes aggainst historical tradition of english rule which is today represented by historical Welsh flag(and coat).

Here is link to historical Welsh flag (http://flagspot.net/flags/gb-wa-hs.html) ;)


Actually quartered lion CoA is CoA of Prince of Wales and was the same of "Kings of Gwynedd" from the ancient times. Principality of Wales was incorporated into Great Britain and recongized in 13th century. The "historical flag and CoA" you suggest came only later and was officially recongized in 1950s(!!) by the Queen of Britain. That Dragon is proabably the oldest Welsh symbol used still today is a fact, but as a royal CoA of Wales never.

Let me quote from the text about "historical flag": "The arms of Llewelyn's [the Last, proclaimed the first Prince of Wales in 1258, died 1282] father, Gruffudd ap Llywelyn Fawr [of the royal house of Gwynedd], were sketched by Matthew Paris (died 1259) and they show, quarterly or and gules (i.e. gold and red) four lions passant counterchanged. ... there is no dragon in the arms of Gwynedd. ... there is more reason to suppose that Llywelyn fought under the traditional Lions of Gwynedd, like other leaders of Gwynedd both before and after him, up to Owain Glyndwr and the Tudors."

[Henrik]

Originally posted by Elewyn
I'm affraid, Henrik, that that eagle is not only in for early medieval period, since it is also on this screenshot (http://www.knights-of-honor.net//english/screenshot.php?screenshot=0118&all=0122|0121|0120|0119|0118|0117|0116|0115|0114) in high period.

Damn, I forgot that Swedish tre kronor are little too similar to French three lilies :( so one crown? or coat of Vasa dynasty? or nowadays flag?

looking at the screenshot i can't see why there aren't any room for giving the swedes the tre kronor, because when you look at the two shields at the bottom of the page you can see that the french COA has three lillies and therefore there would also be enough room to make a COA with 3 cowns in it for the swedes.

I also find it a bit odd why they have made those COAs wrong when we have discussed this subjet so much - one can only hope they will correct these "errors" before the release.

[Finellach]

Originally posted by Siena
I would not worry about graphics guys. I am pretty sure that they can do emblems right.
Europa Universalis had Lithuanian Emblem done right, by the way. It is quite visible.

Regarding Ukraine, Sveden and other countries - I hope they will be fixed.

Paradox didn't draw these, they only converted real CoA's. There is an editor that can also be used by people around. Of course this one is custom made, but Paradox uses the same method. Thats why their CoA's are authentic. I think BSS should do something similar.